Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 265

Malan · 01/31/08, 11:19 AM

I don't know about this 31 second cycle with shock/stormstrike colliding. For me its occuring damn near every time SS comes up. Teron is a good example of that since I can just stand in one place for 4-5 minutes (if not ghosted) and focus completely on hitting shocks and SS as soon as the cooldown expires, and every single time that SS is off CD I have a shock coming off at the same time.

Stopokingme · 01/31/08, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris]

Should clarify that as an orc there's no added benefit for using 2 axes, only 1 is required.

This is actually not true, even though the character screen says you gain 5 expertise when wielding one axe, doesn't mean it's also applied to your other non axe weapon. The character screen just can't display expertise per hand (yet).

Toots Hepcat · 01/31/08, 12:48 PM

Malan: Well, research done from this post actually shows two interactions cycling every 31s; the actual interactions occur at 13s and 31s:

0s   FS (CD up at 6s)
1.5  SS (CD up at 11.5s)
6    ES (CD up at 12s)
11.5 SS (CD up at 12.5s, GCD up at 13s)
13   FS (off by 1s due to GCD, CD up at 19s)
19   ES (CD up at 25s)
21.5 SS (CD up at 31.5s)
25   FS (CD up at 31)
31   ES (GCD up at 32.5)
32.5 SS (off by 1s due to GCD, then continues as at 1.5s above)

This is using a method we could call "Prioritize whatever's first" (first a shock, then a strike) for a total loss of 1s per cycle per 31s.

If you were to prioritize strikes, you'd see a different cycle resulting in the loss of 2s of shocks per 20 (or 1 whole shock per minute):

0    SS (CD up at 10s)
1.5  FS (CD up at 7.5s)
7.5  ES (CD up at 13.5s)
10   SS (CD up at 22.5s, GCD up at 13s)
13.5 FS (CD up at 19.5s)
20   SS (CD up at 25s)
21.5 ES (off by 2s due to GCD, repeating as 1.5s above)

Malan · 01/31/08, 1:04 PM

Now try it with a 50ms lag on each end of button push + notification of something being ready, and lets say another 0.75-0.5 sec or so of realizing that something is ready to be pushed.

(Also did you mean to write ES twice in that 2nd example?)

◊ Rob · 01/31/08, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

[e] I would like to propose the following restructuring, which would also follow through to the ThinkTank wiki whenever Boe finally opens it.

I like.

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Actually, considering the low amount of hit rating many shamans pack, SS can actually be worth closer to 1/5 of your WF procs (based on a WWS from last Thursday, it was responsible for exactly 20% of mine).
...
the SS/Shock race condition that occurs naturally every 31s

Yeah, it would be expected that it's 1/5 of your WF procs if you have 2.6 speed weapons and about 75-80% Flurry uptime as well (rather than the 100% I assumed), even before accounting for misses.

I can understand the tendency to want to model everything, but this is (to me) one of those cases where it just doesn't work out. You're essentially dealing with the interaction of two different overlapping timers (SS and shocks), which is easy, but you've also got to take into account another overlapping timer (autoattack) that has a semi-random duration (due to Flurry gaining/fading) which randomly procs another three-second timer. Oh, and don't forget that if WF is on cooldown, that ten second SS timer extends until WF is off cooldown. The fact that there are so many decision points influenced by random variables makes it so that we're not really talking about a simple ten-second timer anymore, and I think the modeling falls flat on its face at this point.

Now, obviously, if WF is on cooldown and shock and SS are both up at the same time, hitting shock is the best idea (since we know that delaying SS for WF to be off cooldown is a DPS increase). However, if WF is not on cooldown, hitting SS is the best idea, because you are looking at more potential damage from that SS. I think we can probably all agree on this, and it makes the discussion (which ability to delay?) rather moot.

Malan · 01/31/08, 1:12 PM

Can I solicit someone to give me an initial/rough writeup that covers Flametongue + Frostbrand?

Oh and also maybe a "brief intro to enhancement" that would cover 'what we bring to the raid' and basically explaining how we're highly tied to gear choices, procs, etc.

Kalamadea · 01/31/08, 2:04 PM

So if it can't be modeled, what's the priority list for Max DPS?

I think from reading WF totem buff > all the rest of our abilities (correct me if I'm wrong).

However, should you drop WF totem but delay dropping GoA for a shock or SS? Or does GoA > personal DPS at that point?

If SS and Shocks are up at the same time and WF is off CD, which should I do first? Which plays into the next question..

If WF is locked out, and SS is up and shocks are going to be off CD at the same time WF is off CD, should I go ahead and SS then shock? Or delay the SS and the shock to get a SS/WF combo?

If I have a moonkin/ele shaman in the raid, should I SS then ES immediately to use my debuff, or FS and let him use up both charges? (I think I know the answer just don't want to give up my 20% dmg boost. >.< )

If I can't model it, at least I'd like to know which is most important to keep up the highest damage.

Edit: Changed an on to an off.

Delita · 01/31/08, 3:06 PM

Malan, did you want it to be an intro to enhancement for new shamans, for raid leaders or explaining the abilitites we possess? I've already started, but I think from a raid leaders perspective they just want a quick and dirty explanation, whereas new shamans might want more in depth stuff.

Malan · 01/31/08, 3:08 PM

Quick and dirty. More like a "so you are considering rolling/taking an enhance shaman ..." sort of thing, 5-10 lines. Literally just an intro for the wiki article.

Delita · 01/31/08, 3:17 PM

So you’ve found some crazy internet fiend to play an enhancement shaman in your raid. Great, they provide passive AP/Crit buffs from totems and procs, as well as the sought after Windfury all the rogues cry over. They are a HIGHLY proc based class that possess very few active abilities. They can replenish their mana pools based on Attack Power however, which is why you will see a lot of enhancement shaman in leather gear, increasing their crit rate to improve proc rates and increasing their attack power to return more mana per attack as well as straight DPS increases. What you can expect from an enhancement shaman is WF totem (sword spec + AP on a higher proc rate), 90 agility, 100 Str, 10% AP bonus to their group when they crit and a melee class that can heal themselves in a pinch. They are also one of the highest threat building classes in the game, are good at kiting single targets that can be snared and are highly versatile in group compositions.

How's That?

Othieus · 01/31/08, 3:21 PM

I agree with Sebudai completly. Theres no reason why you should shock before ss. Look at it this way...

SS has a 10 sec cd and does roughly 1000 damage non crit (500 for each hand)
1000/10=100dps

Flame shock does more damage so we'll use it.
It has a 6 sec cd with about 500 inital damage non crit
Then about 130 damage every 3 seconds for 12 seconds(4 ticks)
For a total of 1020 in 12 sec and 760 in 6 seconds.
760/6=126.777dps
1020/12=85dps

Sure the raw dps is greater, but now consider that SS can proc WF and that should be plenty of evidence that SS > Shocks.

In short, if you have your SS and shocks come off of cd at the same time, SS first.

Toots Hepcat · 01/31/08, 3:26 PM

Kala, if you're going to twist, use the WF->GoA->SS macro, and shock whenever you can inside that framework.

I think it's becoming obvious that trying to prioritize while twisting and watching the WF cooldown will only result in confusion, latency and probably ulcers.

drats · 01/31/08, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Delita

are good at kiting single targets that can be snared

I actually ended up kiting a ROS blue ghost around the bloodboil trash area for about 2 minutes while my guild screwed around with loot. When I pulled aggro I thought I was toast, but I was able to sheild/SR/earth elemental and get far enough away to start the kite. It was the most fun I've had in BT in weeks, I hope blizzard implements something like that in future raid encounters (more of the tin-man, I guess).

As far as the twisting macro is concerned, I've stayed away from them. There are times when I get behind in the rotation due to lag/reaction speed/etc where it's easier just to skip 3.5s of GoA in order to get a quick heal/warstomp or some other situational thing. An important part of being an enh shaman is maintaining your personal DPS and situational abilities, totem twisting shouldn't interfere with either of these things.

• Binkenstein · 01/31/08, 4:24 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Oops. I blame that on the lack of foresight to split that wall of text into multiple posts to make editing easier.

After maintaining an enchant thread for both of the guilds I was previously in, I learnt the wonders of multi-posting things.
Layout looks nice, and I guess there will be a Vol 2 in the near future.

Othieus · 01/31/08, 4:30 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

I guess there will be a Vol 2 in the near future.

I like that idea.

LazyJoe · 01/31/08, 4:40 PM

Originally Posted by Delita

They are also one of the highest threat building classes in the game

Since 2.2 it's not really true, our physical dps (~85% of the total) has the same aggro as a rogue's one. There's always the risk of some big windfury proc right at the first strike, but holding back a few seconds is enough for the tank to generate enough threat.

Kalamadea · 01/31/08, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Kala, if you're going to twist, use the WF->GoA->SS macro, and shock whenever you can inside that framework.

I think it's becoming obvious that trying to prioritize while twisting and watching the WF cooldown will only result in confusion, latency and probably ulcers.

Thanks for the advice, I'll just live with shocking when I can and try and find my own rhythm.

Morelis · 01/31/08, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by Rob

Proposed change(s) to the main post -- comments?

Malan, there are two sections labeled "VIII.3" so you'll probably want to fix one to be labeled VIII.4. I'm not sure how much of a priority continuing to maintain this thread is with the TTT coming along, so I guess don't bend over backwards to fix that.

VIII.7.1 Itemization - MH Weapons

Optimizing enhancement shaman DPS requires running two slow weapons with Windfury Weapon on both weapons.

The best way to choose between multiple items in the same slot is to run Yo's simulator, once for each item, using the stats that you would have with that item equipped. Do not post asking which weapon is best: find out for yourself by running the sim. That said, here are some general guidelines.

Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available.

Any combo of [Rising Tide] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or a pair of Syphons is the second-best option for those unable to attain an 1850 arena rating.

Arena Season 2 weapons (e.g. [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]), [Dragonstrike], [Wicked Edge of the Planes], [Netherbane], and [Talon of the Phoenix] round out the list of third-best choices.

Generally speaking, if you are an orc, you will want to choose axes for the +5 Expertise Bonus.

The differences in DPS within these "tiers" are relatively minor. Which weapon is best for you, or which weapon to mainhand and which weapon to offhand, can only be found by using the simulator with your stats, and no general conclusions can be drawn.

-----

The "OH weapons" section could probably use an update too. Maybe just a redesign for the way these sections are laid out. I also don't know the ZA weapons off the top of my head, so add them to the above if I'm missing something.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but every time I use the sim to measure MH weapon performance [Talon of the Phoenix] beats out both Syphon and RT, also the revised Dragonstrike proc modeling still puts it slightly above the T6 weapons. If we're going to be so adamant about recommending the sim as a basis for gear selection shouldn't the recommendations match the output it gives us? Or are my results just completely out of line with what others are seeing?

• Daler · 01/31/08, 6:51 PM

Originally Posted by Morelis

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but every time I use the sim to measure MH weapon performance [Talon of the Phoenix] beats out both Syphon and RT, also the revised Dragonstrike proc modeling still puts it slightly above the T6 weapons. If we're going to be so adamant about recommending the sim as a basis for gear selection shouldn't the recommendations match the output it gives us? Or are my results just completely out of line with what others are seeing?

That is certainly an odd result. Could you give the full list of inputs your using with Yo's sim to get those?

Morelis · 01/31/08, 7:10 PM

Originally Posted by Daler

That is certainly an odd result. Could you give the full list of inputs your using with Yo's sim to get those?

Sure, I just use my base armory stats with DS(since it doesn't add any passives) then add in the appropriate passive stats and adjust the DPS/speed for whatever I'm testing.

AP 1782
Crit 32.77%
Hit 22% (resto sub-spec currently)
Haste 2.35%
Armor pen. 126
Str 201
Agi 332

Buffs/Debuffs
Imp GOTW, FF
Imp Hunter's mark, Expose
Imp scorch
BoK, Imp SotC, Imp BoM
Misery
SoE, GoA, No SS
CoE, Malediction, CoR
Imp BS, Sapphire, SA, BF
Flask, No pots, Clefthoof

The results have been very consistent over several months with many gear changes.

poofypajamas · 01/31/08, 7:28 PM

Ok well, I realize I'm probably overlooking something pretty major here, but why is it that hit rating is considerably more valuable at the T6 raid item value than at the T5 or T4? I looked through the post and did not see the answer anywhere and unfortunately, I don't have the patience to look through 250 or so pages of posts to find the answer lol.

I have 1466 AP, with 29.81% crit, and 413 armor penetration unbuffed. Which simulator should I be primarily using with those stats, tier 5?

vorda · 01/31/08, 7:41 PM

Originally Posted by poofypajamas

Ok well, I realize I'm probably overlooking something pretty major here, but why is it that hit rating is considerably more valuable at the T6 raid item value than at the T5 or T4? I looked through the post and did not see the answer anywhere and unfortunately, I don't have the patience to look through 250 or so pages of posts to find the answer lol.

I have 1466 AP, with 29.81% crit, and 413 armor penetration unbuffed. Which simulator should I be primarily using with those stats, tier 5?

Because hit rating value is related to your crit rating and AP values. The more you increase crit/AP, the more valuable hit becomes.

edit: about the values, you can always consider using Yo!'s simulator and get your own personalised values

• Disquette · 01/31/08, 8:38 PM

This post is just a happy "how bout that" moment. Because of a misguided post on the Blizzard forums, I was reminded to run Yo!'s sim to prove something that I've claimed for many months:

slower weapons = higher % of attacks are flurried.

Most of the official forum people for some reason cannot process this fact, though at least some of them get it half right, thinking that they flurry % would be equal between fast and slow weapons.

This was the first time I'd thought to actually verify the hypothesis with the sim, and it worked just spiffy.

That's all, just sharing some vindication/happiness on a topic I wish I had the ability to concretely address months ago.

Wundorn · 01/31/08, 9:18 PM

Originally Posted by Disquette

This post is just a happy "how bout that" moment. Because of a misguided post on the Blizzard forums, I was reminded to run Yo!'s sim to prove something that I've claimed for many months:

slower weapons = higher % of attacks are flurried.

Um... isn't this blindingly obvious? WF is not normalized, so you get more WFs per white attack with slower weapons. This is the basis of "shams need slow weapons". Given this fundamental tenet, it's not exactly a stretch to say that the more WFs per white, the more chances to flurry. Or is there some other issue I'm missing that complicates this?

• Disquette · 01/31/08, 9:23 PM

You're not missing anything. And I too feel it's blindingly obvious, as you put it. However for some reason many people don't seem to grasp this (also note that it's not just WF, it's also SS). This was the first time I made the conscious effort to look at that effect in a sim though.