Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 267

Malan · 02/01/08, 3:11 PM

Well it looks like patch 2.4 is going to make heroic gem drops non-unique, so we may need to re-evaluate which gems are 'best in socket'.

Morelis · 02/01/08, 3:28 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

It's not that strange.

Talon vs Syphon:
-3.7 DPS
-6 HitR
+19 Crit
+ 6 AP

T5 values:
-3.7 DPS ~ -33.4 EP
-6 HitR ~ -8.4 EP
+19 Crit ~ +38 EP
+ 6 AP
-41.8 + 44 = 2.2 EP, Talon better at T5 gear level

T6 values
-3.7 DPS ~ -33.4 EP
-6 HitR ~ -10.14 EP
+19 Crit ~ 33.06
+ 6 AP ~
- 43.54 +39.06 = -4.48, Syphon better at T6 gear level

So, surprsingly, the Talon is better when you get it. And the Syphon is better when you get it.

So why does the Talon beat Syphon at my gear level?(T6) I'd be really curious to see if someone can post their stats where Syphon ever comes out on top in the sim. Also the stat differences you list in your post are wrong.

Toots Hepcat · 02/01/08, 3:30 PM

Time to stock up on [Enscribed Fire Opal] and [Shifting Tanzanite].

EFO > Inscribed Noble Topaz already. EFO > BLR if your value for crit is greater than 1.65.

(Given their awful drop percentage, and also how annoying Mana Tombs is, I doubt I'll be stacking either one).

Morelis · 02/01/08, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Well it looks like patch 2.4 is going to make heroic gem drops non-unique, so we may need to re-evaluate which gems are 'best in socket'.

The oddball str/agi Coilfang gem will be best for blue sockets(though it already was), don't think anything else would change.

Toots Hepcat · 02/01/08, 3:32 PM

Well, the EP weights that have the Talon lose are in the OP -- they're Sebudai's.

And yeah, I goofed -- I was comparing the Rising Tide to the talon, not the Syphon.

Morelis · 02/01/08, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Well, the EP weights that have the Talon lose are in the OP -- they're Sebudai's.

And yeah, I goofed -- I was comparing the Rising Tide to the talon, not the Syphon.

Ok, but those stats corrected would show it not losing, which is right. I'm just trying to figure out why something that performs better in the sim(which we base everything off) and more people have access to is being passed off as second class. The stats you listed aren't quite right for RT either and also neglect to take weapon speed into account, which is a significant factor.

vaynous · 02/01/08, 4:13 PM

Would the DPS be viable for a 2H during with a large amount of haste?
I'm looking to get a torch of the damned. 3.8 atk spd (with 50 haste). If I pop bloodlust, drums of battle and haste potion the atk speed would be close to 1.75 (plus flurry) dont know exact numbers. with the highest top end in the game and that attack speed would it be viable dps while the haste buffs are up? It also seems that when i have all of my haste buffs and add dragonstrike 212 haste to that for my DW, the speed wastes a lot of white hits while wfcd is up.

Malan · 02/01/08, 4:16 PM

Originally Posted by vaynous

If I pop bloodlust, drums of battle and haste potion

So you're asking if you'd be viable for 30 seconds every 10 minutes?

vaynous · 02/01/08, 4:25 PM

ya 30 seconds every 10 min

Malan · 02/01/08, 4:26 PM

I mean, you realize how ludicrous that is right?

vaynous · 02/01/08, 4:28 PM

i use all of those items anyway. its either better or worse. what is your opinion?

vaynous · 02/01/08, 4:29 PM

btw im DW when this isnt going on btw. just incase u think im using a 2H the whole time

vaynous · 02/01/08, 4:36 PM

plus flurry and UR would be up when i switch from DW and i have all of my haste buffs

dr_AllCOM3 · 02/01/08, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by Disquette

Hm. You stated you saw this, but I couldn't find the data points. Can I have the combat logs? I'd love to add new data, especially with your consistent low ping, to the thread.

First, a good place to test this are the mobs in the Blasted Lands. Go all out for a while, then let someone taunt. You run ooc. Now you have alle the time you want to attack from behind

.

2.6speed, MH 100dps, OH 5dps, 4m:15s runtime, ~50ms (at night I get <30ms

)
It's so synced, the hits even swap places sometimes. Two instances, where the hits were 0,4s apart (at 5403+5408). I blame lag. Some mongoose proc were in there too.

5319,465	You	hit	183
5319,767	You	crit	1156
5321,726	You	hit	183
5321,967	You	crit	977
5323,830	You	hit	183
5324,052	You	miss	0
5325,917	You	crit	378
5326,178	You	hit	534
5328,379	You	miss	0
5328,700	You	hit	550
5331,018	You	crit	376
5331,396	You	crit	974
5333,240	You	hit	183
5333,551	You	hit	556
5335,410	You	hit	183
5335,642	You	hit	499
5337,869	You	crit	377
5338,230	You	hit	560
5340,058	You	hit	183
5340,357	You	hit	472
5342,407	You	crit	378
5342,797	You	hit	497
5344,686	You	hit	182
5344,921	You	crit	924
5347,100	You	hit	183
5347,475	You	hit	563
5349,705	You	hit	183
5350,087	You	miss	0
5352,335	You	miss	0
5352,716	You	crit	1029
5354,717	You	hit	183
5354,955	You	crit	1010
5356,786	You	miss	0
5357,138	You	crit	1088
5358,862	You	crit	377
5359,245	You	hit	539
5400,969	You	hit	183
5401,298	You	hit	500
5403,271	You	crit	377
5403,706	You	hit	525
5405,464	You	miss	0
5405,810	You	hit	472
5407,857	You	crit	378
5408,320	You	hit	441
5410,072	You	hit	183
5410,437	You	crit	1125
5412,468	You	hit	183
5412,841	You	crit	989
5414,700	You	hit	183
5415,000	You	hit	468
5416,860	You	crit	377
5417,084	You	hit	443
5419,365	You	hit	183
5419,660	You	crit	938
5421,816	You	hit	183
5421,929	You	hit	547
5423,888	You	hit	183
5424,019	You	hit	471
5426,280	You	miss	0
5426,452	You	crit	976
5428,629	You	crit	377
5428,663	You	hit	547
5430,702	You	hit	183
5430,751	You	hit	542
5433,135	You	miss	0
5433,184	You	hit	518
5435,728	You	hit	184
5435,822	You	hit	472
5438,338	You	hit	183
5438,418	You	hit	489
5440,942	You	hit	183
5441,130	You	hit	521
5443,646	You	hit	183
5443,710	You	hit	543
5446,189	You	hit	183
5446,221	You	hit	474
5448,836	You	miss	0
5448,852	You	miss	0
5451,381	You	hit	468
5451,413	You	miss	0
5454,042	You	miss	0
5454,076	You	hit	533
5456,585	You	crit	1097
5456,618	You	miss	0
5458,670	You	hit	183
5458,702	You	crit	1053
5500,758	You	miss	0
5500,791	You	crit	1015
5502,842	You	hit	183
5502,876	You	hit	459
5504,924	You	crit	377
5504,957	You	hit	553
5507,438	You	crit	1126
5507,472	You	crit	377
5509,720	You	hit	530
5509,738	You	hit	182
5511,791	You	miss	0
5511,825	You	hit	183
5514,333	You	crit	993
5514,351	You	crit	377
5516,628	You	hit	183
5516,661	You	miss	0
5518,701	You	crit	376
5518,735	You	hit	478
5521,121	You	hit	182
5521,153	You	crit	1142
5523,271	You	hit	183
5523,305	You	hit	543
5525,423	You	crit	377
5525,457	You	hit	453
5527,894	You	crit	1162
5527,927	You	hit	183
5530,042	You	hit	184
5530,060	You	crit	915
5532,637	You	crit	378
5532,655	You	crit	1122
5534,877	You	hit	184
5534,895	You	hit	493
5536,961	You	hit	183
5536,980	You	crit	1010
5539,113	You	hit	183
5539,147	You	crit	1006
5541,197	You	crit	377
5541,215	You	crit	1127
5543,273	You	hit	183
5543,292	You	hit	476
5545,358	You	miss	0
5545,377	You	crit	376
5547,477	You	crit	378
5547,494	You	hit	555
5549,557	You	crit	376
5549,575	You	crit	939
5551,638	You	hit	183
5551,659	You	crit	996
5553,719	You	hit	184
5553,738	You	crit	935
5555,801	You	hit	183
5555,819	You	crit	966
5557,945	You	hit	183
5557,962	You	miss	0
5600,018	You	hit	501
5600,052	You	hit	183
5602,535	You	crit	1005
5602,568	You	hit	183
5604,773	You	crit	378
5604,792	You	crit	1061
5606,856	You	hit	183
5606,874	You	hit	504
5608,922	You	crit	985
5608,955	You	crit	378
5611,006	You	crit	971
5611,040	You	hit	183
5613,100	You	crit	377
5613,119	You	hit	532
5615,232	You	miss	0
5615,253	You	crit	1034
5617,671	You	crit	1112
5617,704	You	crit	376
5619,866	You	crit	990
5619,885	You	crit	378
5621,901	You	hit	183
5621,934	You	hit	516
5623,941	You	crit	378
5623,976	You	crit	997
5626,033	You	hit	182
5626,066	You	crit	988
5628,075	You	crit	377
5628,108	You	hit	527
5630,121	You	hit	183
5630,155	You	hit	474
5632,624	You	crit	1042
5632,641	You	miss	0
5634,701	You	hit	183
5634,767	You	hit	477
5636,827	You	hit	444
5636,827	You	crit	377
5638,840	You	crit	1130
5638,859	You	hit	184
5640,871	You	crit	961
5640,904	You	hit	184
5642,990	You	miss	0
5642,990	You	crit	378
5645,403	You	hit	183
5645,403	You	crit	1083
5647,578	You	hit	183
5647,595	You	crit	1009
5649,606	You	hit	184
5649,640	You	crit	999
5651,643	You	miss	0
5651,685	You	hit	465
5653,733	You	crit	1111
5653,752	You	crit	377
5655,849	You	hit	182
5655,882	You	hit	503
5657,929	You	hit	447
5657,961	You	miss	0
5700,366	You	hit	472
5700,399	You	crit	377
5702,614	You	hit	535
5702,632	You	crit	376
5704,697	You	hit	543
5704,761	You	hit	182
5706,820	You	hit	554
5706,854	You	hit	183
5709,463	You	hit	503
5709,463	You	hit	183
5712,101	You	hit	464
5712,135	You	hit	183
5714,756	You	hit	183
5714,756	You	hit	447
5717,321	You	miss	0
5717,338	You	crit	946
5719,554	You	hit	183
5719,573	You	hit	559
5721,668	You	hit	182
5721,701	You	crit	1138
5723,768	You	hit	183
5723,786	You	hit	553
5725,831	You	crit	378
5725,867	You	hit	530
5728,268	You	hit	184
5728,301	You	miss	0
5730,924	You	hit	183
5730,926	You	crit	1047
5733,118	You	hit	183
5733,151	You	crit	971
5735,198	You	hit	183
5735,231	You	crit	1080

Link to Log (Excel)

Disquette · 02/01/08, 5:15 PM

Thanks much for the link. Downloading the Office 2k7 compatability pack now to open the xlsx file.

dr_AllCOM3 · 02/01/08, 5:22 PM

Oh, I forgot about Excel2007. I changed the link to 2003/97.

Disquette · 02/01/08, 5:45 PM

It's no prob, I needed to install the converter anyway. Get with the times, all that stuff ;-)

So, I opened it, and I guess the part that makes it difficult for me is that I can't see the flurry or mongoose or other procs. I'm sure you did a fine job in taking those into account, but with the raw data missing, I have trouble reconciling what you're seeing with what I saw in that other thread.

If there's anyway you'd be willing to do another blasted lands test and post the full combat log (the txt file, only trimming any data before or after the test) before parsing (and letting us know if you wore any haste gear), I'd be extremely grateful. I know those tests kind of suck though, so I completely understand if you decline.

dr_AllCOM3 · 02/01/08, 5:54 PM

Originally Posted by Disquette

If there's anyway you'd be willing to do another blasted lands test and post the full combat log (the txt file, only trimming any data before or after the test) before parsing (and letting us know if you wore any haste gear), I'd be extremely grateful. I know those tests kind of suck though, so I completely understand if you decline.

Uh, look at the bottom. The original is there too.

vaynous · 02/01/08, 5:58 PM

My question above was not thorough enough.

I am DW for the encounter and for a short period of time, i.e. when flurry and UR are proc'ed and when i have used a haste potion 400 haste (10 second duration), Drums of Battle 80 haste and Bloodlust is it viable to switch to a 2H weapon such as Torch of the Damned 3.8 atkspd with 50 haste rating. Considering that with Dragonstrike proc adding an additional 212 haste rating, that would result in too many white hits. Basically is the 2H fast enough with the haste buffs? Or do the added white hits still outweigh the possible dps of the 2H with the increased speed? (I understand that this is a very short amount of time, I'm bored and I was just curious).

Rapparee · 02/01/08, 6:36 PM

I too am confused on your theorycrafting about the torch of the damned if fully hasted out the wazoo.....

On the front end it looks like you're just high. So let's look at some math and see what we get.

General assumptions: you kick it new-school with either S3 weapons or Torch of the Damned.
You have enough haste with Torch to hit 1.75s speed (for 30seconds, you've got double length haste pots and a horseshoe up your ass, whatever it takes).
Your S3 weapons instead of 2.6 would be 2.6/1.4(bloodlust)/1.25(flurry-it's permanent due to that horseshoe for luck)/**whatever haste -50 **

Near as I can tell, Your torch set of gear would have to be 378haste.
3.8/1.4/1.25/1.2411 = 1.75
24.107% haste *15.68ish = 378ish haste

Your S3 weapons are rolling in 50 haste slower or...
2.6/1.4/1.25/1.2092 = 1.23

Supposedly you instantly switch weapons to the Torch of the Damned as you cast lust + all that other hulabaloo... but I'm going to go ahead and say that you lose 1.75seconds + 1.23seconds of attacks out of a 31.23 second due to weapon swaps upsetting your swing timer. Perhaps I'm totally wrong on this count and you don't really lose these times. But I'm going to go ahead and assume that the swing timer resets.
Naturally the S3 weapons lose no time, since you would not be switching them around for that scenario.

TORCH OF THE DAMNED:
You get 17 hits, first one at 1.75 seconds, last one at 29.75seconds.
You get 3 stormstrikes (5% miss rate, out of your 20hits, i'm taking 1 away)
You get 4 windfuries, sorry buddy, but at 20% chance and only 20ish possible hits, 4 is your max.

S3 -VENGEFUL WEAPONS OF FAR TOO GOOD FOR PVE:
You'd get 25MH hits, 25OH hits, first two at 0.615seconds, last one at 30.135. I did the first hit at halfway through a hasted swing cycle, since you didn't switch weapons and the last hit is that free hit that not switching weapons gives you.
You get 3 stormstrikes (i'm going to say you miss 15%, so instead of 28MH, 28OH, it's 24 each)
You get 6 windfuries (roughly 48 chances at 20% is 9.6 WFs, There must be collision due to 3.0seconds so I took away 3 and truncated just to be brutal, we'll make 3MH, 3OH for simplicity)

Let's assume that there's no additional procs going on... no double mongoose of the executed dragonspine tsunamis.
You've got 3000 AP
Torch average hit = 496.5+814, 1310.5. average WF = 623APbonus so 1479.6
S3 average hit = 268+557, 825MH 412.5OH. average WF = 940.7MH, 528.2OH (the WF's AP is not halved for OH hits, as far as I remember)

TORCH TOTAL= 19*1310.5+8*1479.6 = 36717
S3 VENGEFUL TOTAL = 24MH*825+24OH*412.5+6MH*940.7+6OH*528.2=38519

Sorry, but that's 2000 damage in 30seconds... roughly speaking it's 5% more damage to stay dual wield. with my goofy assumptions.

shoot someone caught me while i was editting in some miss chances... i added in some miss chances to make it slightly more realistic. (as if 100% flurry was realistitc)

Prost · 02/01/08, 6:50 PM

Isn't this all based on the idea that the 2H would hit on every attack as well? You have to factor in that you're losing 6% hit because you aren't dual wielding any more. Wouldn't one miss pretty much ruin the potential DPS benefit?

vaynous · 02/01/08, 6:56 PM

Thank you kind sir.

Although I am not high, I would much rather be high than be on speed and PCP which is very obvious you are.

Sebudai · 02/01/08, 6:56 PM

I'm confused as to where this is going. Dual wielding does more damage than using a two-handed weapon regardless of the amount of haste you have. I don't see how haste somehow scales better with a two-handed weapon than it would while dual wielding.

Maybe I'm dumb. Please explain.

Ilmatar · 02/01/08, 7:47 PM

Probably not needed, but [Sundered Chrysoprase] is not a bad 2nd choice to other options for a blue gem slot. You miss out on stamina while gaining your AEP, but it still gives you 5crit, and fills a blue slot.

Paradox · 02/01/08, 8:10 PM

Definetly worth getting 2x [Shifting Tanzanite] for the RED now, one for your Midnight chest and 1 for the Bow-Stitched legs