Alright. I've been reading this thread for awhile and I'll be the first to admit that a lot of it goes over my head. I'm not as dedicated as a lot of you, and math is far from my strong suit. But I pick up useful information here and there that I can grasp. I've always been a bit wary about using Yo!'s simulator, but I finally took the plunge. A few questions:

- The option for Band of the Eternal Champion is greyed out for me. Is this just an incomplete feature?

- I use Pawn, not Enhancer. I assume I should take the EP values Yo!'s spits out after it's done and enter them into Pawn.

- I was shocked by some of my EP values. Using the baseline Atk 1 value, it has Crit 2.01 / Hit 1.76 / Haste 1.8 / Armor Pen 0.31 / Str 2.2 / Agi 1.96 / Expertise 3.38. Some of those were surprising. I was surprised Hit and Haste were valued so high.

At my current EP values, 5 crit is about equal to 4 str, and I'd much rather have the stam than the mp5. I don't think its worth noting.

Yes.
Yes.
Run it for longer and more times and then take an average.

i entered some basic numbers into yo's

i only changed atk,crit,haste, weapon speed and weapon dps.
1800 atk
36% crit
8% haste

100dps 2.8speed weapons x2 =1410

100dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1385
101dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1388
102dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1391
103dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1394
104dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1398
105dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1402
106dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1405
107dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1409
108dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1413

103dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1403
104dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1407
105dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1410

Then the same inputs but with much lower crit (30%)
108dps 2.6speed = 1343
103dps 2.6speed = 1326
100dps 2.8speed = 1338

This test doesn't take into effect the weapon stats etc.



Basically I'm seeing that two Syphons are best until you have two 2.6 speed weapons with 108dps, or a 105dps 2.6 speed MH and a 100dps 2.8speed OH



I know its different for every ones values but i just stuck with top leather and full t6 stats

So basically you ignored all stat gains on the items and compared speed/dps. That would work if items had no stats, but they do.

2x syphons stats with buffs/debuffs:
2.35% haste
15.02% hit
1800 ap
33.15% crit
301 armor ignore
6 expertise

@7700ac=1627, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200ac=1785, 1787, 1788, 1786

2x vengeful stats with same buffs/debuffs:
2.35% haste
16.04% hit
1768 ap
35.05% crit
399 armor ignore
6 expertise

@7700 ac =1630, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200 ac=1808, 1808, 1808, 1809

On higher AC mobs/phase 1 souls you'll see similar results between syphons and vengeful, get into lower ac mobs(Teron, Anetheron, others I don't remember) and the numbers swing more in vengeful's favor. Toss in the 2 armor ignore items that I am lacking and the margin grows further. Statistics are fun because you can make anything look better than what they actually are.

So what you're saying is, welfare epic weapons > any currently obtainable PvE weapon, for.. PvE?

Well, for 1,000 gold on my server you can 'pay' people to boost you in 3v3, it takes a single evening... and you get 1850 rating and better than BT weapons. Sounds welfare to me.

'lo,

our guild has been beginning to try to push DPS on fights such as Teron to see how well we can do on the WWS rankings,
We had a semi-decent try at it this week (but got unlucky with who got ghosts, so DPS dropped significantly ) and I was wondering after reviewing our WWS about trinket choice.

Khaelyn - WWS

This is the WWS. I had 3 Tsunami Talisman procs with Fury of the Crashing Waves and 4 DST Procs (-2 Haste buffs from Haste Potions).

The question I was wondering is PERSONAL experience with trinkets on such occasions, I know I could kinda model it with the sim, but that's not really what I'm looking for. As far as I know, the sim can't take into account fight length and that's the biggest factor here - how will I do the most DPS for a short period of time. The question arose to me when I realised I could use [Berserker's Call] twice, not to mention one of the would be up during a Heroism too, probably signifcantly spiking my burst DPS. I was wondering if any of you have already had this dilemma when trying such crazy things as to make fights a DPS fest.
I'm thinking [Berserker's Call] will provide me with more DPS than [Tsunami Talisman] but it's just a gut feeling.
As such I thought I'd ask if there were others before me that have experimented.

That wasn't the intent, but I thought it was a given. I had my weapons in the first few days and it was hell, something that I am definitely not looking forward to whenever S4 hits. The system is amazing imo, not being limited by boss drops or weapon selection is just fantastic. If only they'd move bosses to a pure token system so the 3984892th zhardoom and 834292th cursed vision aren't de'd while we're sitting on 2 skulls, 3 rings, and a single offhand glaive after nearing 7 months of farm. /rant

Anyways, back on topic! The comparisons were to show the silly man that ignoring stat gains on weapons is retarded and leaving out xyz variable will give improper results.

With a decent team with the right matrix(war/pal/sham, druid/x/sham) 1850 is really easy. But finding a team already at 1900~2k, and playing 30ish games(winning most) will get you 1850 in a few hours; it's what I ended up doing.

I use a BC for that exact reason, so i can pop it when i use other cooldowns like haste pots, heroism, drums etc. Personally stacking buffs like that give me really good results, which is why I doubt i'll bother getting a MoTB/TT. The next trinket I'll get will be the sunwell one with expertise and on hit AP inc (If those loots do actually turn out to be true).

Definitely, you're looking to push that fight down to 2-3 minutes so you'll want to shed trinkets that have a long internal cooldown.

Well, the reason I was wondering is that I had more Tsunami procs than I would have BC activations. I was doubting - maybe the stats of TT would outweigh BC's extra AP I'd get.

Hi all, didn't see this discussed in here (and maybe it shouldn't be, but we'll get to that later). However, it's certainly something that I feel would be worth some intense theorycrafting. I also chose to ask in this forum instead of the elemental forum because of everyone's familiarity with enhance gear.

I also think that this is probably not a viable option for raiding, but I've been curious ever since the mental quickness change.

Has anyone examined a 33/28/0 spec where the player would gear to max AP and then auto-attack while throwing lightning bolts?

I became curious about this from hearing some elemental shamans that I know (who do very good dps) complain about the difficulty in breaking 1000 spell damage, and my own experience as enhance still having over 700 spell damage buffed in pre-T5 gear.

With all of the buffs to AP that can be applied to a shaman, is it possible to break 3333 AP?

Barring that, what would the dps be of a person in melee range, with melee weapons, using WF and auto attack (prolly it would be MH + caster dps off-hand OR a 2H weapon) who was spamming LB?

How much DPS would they need to achieve from auto-attacks in order to make up for the lost dps from not speccing fully into elemental? How much DPS would they need from their lightning bolts in order to make up for not speccing fully into enhance?

Would it be possible to make a character with this spec viable for raiding? (I expect this to be a no, but I'm still very curious)

Seems to me that the gear would need to be max STR and AP, have just enough hit to break the yellow damage hit cap (5% I think), and the play style would have to allow for melee and caster dps at the same time (assuming an auto attack in between every lightning bolt or every other lightning bolt, depending on weapon speed).

Obviously, you can get more +spell damage from wearing all caster gear, but then your melee attacks would hit for nothing (and most casters don't melee ever anyway). The point of this spec would be to have melee still be a significant portion of the dps of the character (LB would still take the lion's share though - I imagine). Likewise, you could gear and spec for full enhance, but then you'd be enhance and not melemental. There, I've created a good name for the spec, too.

Additionally, and I think this would probably be the biggest factor killing the spec: Would it be possible to sustain dps without completely running out of mana? Would threat be an issue without spirit weapons (and having to fight in melee range)?

I'm thinking that if you can do 2/3 of the damage of an ele shaman with full enhance gear on, that your melee auto-attacks with WF would easily make up the additional 1/3. But I haven't tried the spec and I don't really have the full STR + AP gear that would allow me to maximize a melemental spec.

Anyway, have fun with this one.

You either won't have the AP to sustain the spell damage, or won't have the mana to sustain the lightning bolts. And if you're meleeing in between while waiting on mana, your melee will run dry with that few points in Enhance.

You also won't have Totem of Wrath, or Unleashed Rage. Which are major reasons for having a shaman in your group.

Edit: Or weapon mastery, or DW unless you meant 28/33 instead of 33/28

# of procs themselves is great, but you also need to consider buff duration. BC is 20s, Tsunami is 10s, so now you'd need at least 3 TT procs to give about an equal amount of AP/s as well as modelling the other stats the items give. Assuming the items both 'go off' at exactly their CD end AND right @ 0:00 you can model an ideal situation (with everything else being equal) and if you want, take a sample and create a % proc coefficient for TT (BS would be 100% since its an on use trinket). No you're never going to get 2 boss attempts ever to have all things being equal to start building a statistical database, so all the theorycraft goes out the window and we come round to it being totally chance based and reliant on TT going off ASAP.

EDIT: LOL, Casting any spell with a cast duration resets your wswing timer, GL with chain casting LBs with AA on.

Nor would you have the mana pool or regen to sustain it.

Also if you cast a spell made instant (via 2 Tier 5 or Nature's Swiftness) that is not normally instant, it also resets the swing timer.

Felt like messing with Google Spreadsheets and I made a spreadsheet template for using Yo's simulator that does the averages for you and formats an enhancer string with the averaged values. I think the permissions are set so you can copy it and use the template for yourself.

Google Docs - AEP Averager

Alright, thanks. I ran it 6 times at 10,000 hours each and came up with the following:

AP 1 / Crit 1.91 / Hit 1.76 / Haste 1.91 / Armor Pen 0.31 / Str 2.20 / Agi 1.85 / Expertise 3.40

I'm going to guess 6 runs of it is enough but I could be wrong. Currently my haste is valued the same as crit, very interesting.

You left out the syphon shadow damage, which is somewhere between 0 and 5DPS per syphon (my average is 3.5ish). Which tips the favor to Syphon for high AC mobs. But like you said, as soon as one tacks in another item or two with more AC reduction it swings even more in the favor of the vengeful weapons.

Jeez, I didn't think about that.. My bad.