I did use the Search, but i didn't find anything about the "Classic" Trinket "Hand of Justice".
Can anybody give me please the maths compared to the "newer" BC Trinkets. Or wouldn't it be worth to wear?
Haha, tbh I really was hoping Rising Tide would be better because it's easier to ninja it off Obould and the rogues can't use it :P As far as I know the extra flurry uptime is from a flurry bug by using identical speed weapons. I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong but identical speed weps have a chance to sometimes only eat one flurry charge at times when they should have eaten two.
Oh my god, how painful are the memories farming BRD for it (it took me 100+ runs to get it). Back at level 60 it was a 2% chance for an extra attack, i don't know if it was a victim of the "level nerf" as well (like most of the other % based lvl 60 trinkets).
I'm using Talon of the Phoenix (2.7) in MH and Syphon (2.8) in OH. As I said before it's slightly better than Syphon in MH and Gladiator's Cleaver in OH (I tested it on Teron). I think the best is 2 x Syphon because of the equal speed weapons making better flurry uptime (is it a bug btw?). I didn't notice Syphon's proc stacking to itself but maybe I just didn't watch it carefully. I suppose dual Syphon acts like dual mongoose. But it's not 120 damage, it's 20 damage to the target and heal self after every hit (including stormstrikes and windfuries) for 6 seconds. Also it uses debuffs like CoS and Misery, sometimes I see 37-40 damage instead of 20.
I'm planning to get an other Syphon and Rising Tide as well and pay some guildmates to test 2.6/2.8 and 2.8/2.8 on Halaa guards. Let's hope they drop fast
I did use the Search, but i didn't find anything about the "Classic" Trinket "Hand of Justice".
Can anybody give me please the maths compared to the "newer" BC Trinkets. Or wouldn't it be worth to wear?
The chance to proc was reduced at lvl 70. At 60 it was 2%, now its a 1.33%.
Haha, tbh I really was hoping Rising Tide would be better because it's easier to ninja it off Obould and the rogues can't use it :P As far as I know the extra flurry uptime is from a flurry bug by using identical speed weapons. I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong but identical speed weps have a chance to sometimes only eat one flurry charge at times when they should have eaten two.
I dont think identical speed weapons are any different than non-ident speed weapons. See the chart here:
That's empirical testing. Look for the line towards the bottom called %extra attacks. If there were any benefit to same-speed weapons, that number should be a lot bigger for each weapon combo of same speed.
If Decap MH + Cleaver OH is better on white DPS it will also always be favored for yellow DPS -- there's no reason why the MH will proc WF much more often -- you said yourself that they're the same speed. Similarly, if Decap MH + Cleaver OH is a bigger pair of white swings than Cleaver MH + Green OH, it will always be a bigger pair of yellow swings (Stormstrike). See why it's easy now.
But shouldn't WF proc more often on the MH? If the weapons are the same speed, and the MH is checked first to see if it procs, then it would make sense to me that the MH would proc more often. Is that not right? That's what I was getting from the whole discussion about having the slow OH.
But shouldn't WF proc more often on the MH? If the weapons are the same speed, and the MH is checked first to see if it procs, then it would make sense to me that the MH would proc more often. Is that not right? That's what I was getting from the whole discussion about having the slow OH.
I have not seen any evidence that the MH is checked first with equal weapon speeds -- though I'm willing to be shown some.
Having a slower OH than MH does mean that the MH will get more chances to proc WF, over a given amount of time.
Just a quick question on spirit weapons. An enhancement friend of mine thinks its bugged, but I figure if it was I'd have read about it here. I'm guessing the 15% threat reduction is working properly for all forms of melee attacks, including WF and Stormstrike?
I think he was reading on the wow forums about it. Of course the question is never trust the wow forums. I don't want to waste money respeccing though so I figured a simple query here would do the trick, especially since I didn't see it in your summary on page 1 or in all the threads I read here when I still was enhancement.
Edit: I think some testing might need to be done. Slant, who posts here and also maintains the Shaman faq on the forums is posting that spirit weapons is only working for white damage on attacks, not for yellow (Stormstrike and WF)
I use the dagger simply because the axe is the last weapon we kill whereas the dagger is generally the second. ( It's supposed to be the third but the rogues and I would rather kill the dagger than the healing mace.. >_> ) I've been really satisfied with my dps output with it. Although we're still learning the fight so I find myself throwing a ton of heals during the hectic transition from the weapons to the advisers so I lack the mana to dps at full.
Boy would I love to see the big numbers that axe could generate. Every once in a while I run around in raids with my Gorehowl out just to see big numbers, it puts a big smile on my face But that is for after we get the fight down pat.
Thanks for the reply, I'll definetly be using the dagger in my MH next Kael.
Stig, I hadn't even thought of looting them both and using the axe until kael was up /facepalm. Thanks for the input!
It's designed to track flurry uptime, which it seems to do very well. The fun part is you can change the "you gain/fades from you" strings in the .lua file and replace them with pretty much any proc and measure uptimes for them. I've been getting interesting results looking at mongoose/dragonstrike/dragonspine trophy uptimes. Seems most estimates on proc rates have been fairly conservative. The only caveat I can offer is that it doesn't handle double procs, so if two items produce buffs with the same name you'll need to measure them separately.
Prior to this I'd been using procwatch, but it's inability to distinguish procs refreshing themselves had made the data from it very sketchy.
Armed with more solid estimates of the contribution from haste procs thanks to that mod, I made a scale using Pater's sim with my current gear and raid buffs. I was surprised to see hit rating pull slightly ahead of crit rating, which has lost substantial ground to AP. I'm speculating the diminishing returns on flurry uptime for crit and haste enlarging my white damage % are responsible for the switch. Might be interesting results for players with similar gear to mine.
Anyway here are the results, here's hoping I didn't make any silly math errors.
AP=2600 Crit=40.81% Hit=17.31% Haste=28.9%
Str 2.2
CR 1.72
HR 1.73
Haste 1.96
Agi 1.67
AP 1
They are not "equilibrium" values, they are values at which the formula 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating holds true. So, no, hit is not dramatically increased in value relative to AP/crit.
Ok, I get it: at these values, 1 str/2 AP and 1 crit rating would increase your DPS equally. A hit value has to be included because the value of your AP changes relative to your hit, but the value of your crit doesn't. That makes more sense.
I was under the impression that at these values 1 hit was supposed to be equal to 1 str or 1 crit, which wouldn't make a lot of sense. I wasn't making an argument that we should stack hit; I was just wondering what I didn't understand about the ratio.
Originally Posted by Kasi
Edit: I think some testing might need to be done. Slant, who posts here and also maintains the Shaman faq on the forums is posting that spirit weapons is only working for white damage on attacks, not for yellow (Stormstrike and WF)
If anyone's got test data backing that up, it'd be worth posting. As far as I can tell Spirit Weapons works, because I know KTM assumes it works, and if my KTM was off by any significant margin I'd die to Hydross every week without fail.
I'm probably partially responsible for the "spirit weapons doesn't work!" rumor on the WoW forums. A friend and I did a test about one week after 2.0 came out. The test showed that when I let a mob beat on me and built up threat on it with lightning shield, he could pull aggro off me earlier than we'd expect if Spirit Weapons was working. We posted the results on the WoW bug report forums and Hortus responded that he'd tested it by looking directly at the mob threat levels and Spirit Weapons was working fine.
So all I know is that, according to one very brief and not particularly error-proofed test, Spirit Weapons might not have been working seven months ago. Unfortunately this exchange took place on the WoW forums, so I've seen that thread linked a few times in threads complaining that Spirit Weapons doesn't work to this day and that Blizzard has been ignoring and lying about the problem ever since. This is, of course, part of the sinister conspiracy by horde-hating Blizzard employees to force all shamans to spec resto.
By the way, last night I found that I was able to hit the 1.51 hasted weapon speed (where the theoretical DPS drop occurs) with no passive haste on and no blacksmith weapon. I took a screen shot of the char screen with my current buffs, I'll get it posted later. I was quite surprised to see that I dropped that low from 2.6 without bloodlust up, and then checked a few more times and saw that I was hitting 1.51 quite frequently.
By the way, last night I found that I was able to hit the 1.51 hasted weapon speed (where the theoretical DPS drop occurs) with no passive haste on and no blacksmith weapon. I took a screen shot of the char screen with my current buffs, I'll get it posted later. I was quite surprised to see that I dropped that low from 2.6 without bloodlust up, and then checked a few more times and saw that I was hitting 1.51 quite frequently.
Grr armory is being annoying right now. Did you have double Mongoose up at the time? I've been running with Mongoose/Crusader recently, partly to avoid double procs. I figure once I start getting access to a significant amount of haste items I can put them all on at once to try and skip over the dead spot.
It's designed to track flurry uptime, which it seems to do very well. The fun part is you can change the "you gain/fades from you" strings in the .lua file and replace them with pretty much any proc and measure uptimes for them. I've been getting interesting results looking at mongoose/dragonstrike/dragonspine trophy uptimes. Seems most estimates on proc rates have been fairly conservative. The only caveat I can offer is that it doesn't handle double procs, so if two items produce buffs with the same name you'll need to measure them separately.
Prior to this I'd been using procwatch, but it's inability to distinguish procs refreshing themselves had made the data from it very sketchy.
Armed with more solid estimates of the contribution from haste procs thanks to that mod, I made a scale using Pater's sim with my current gear and raid buffs. I was surprised to see hit rating pull slightly ahead of crit rating, which has lost substantial ground to AP. I'm speculating the diminishing returns on flurry uptime for crit and haste enlarging my white damage % are responsible for the switch. Might be interesting results for players with similar gear to mine.
Anyway here are the results, here's hoping I didn't make any silly math errors.
AP=2600 Crit=40.81% Hit=17.31% Haste=28.9%
Str 2.2
CR 1.72
HR 1.73
Haste 1.96
Agi 1.67
AP 1
If I'm reading this correctly, you are saying a haste stacking shaman gets more benefit from hit over crit (even if it's a tiny amount). This confuses me after all the results saying hit has been way overvalued. Wondering if one of our math regulars could pick this apart a little bit? After following this and the "itemizing enhancement at 70" thread for a couple months now, I'm almost getting flustered at varying results from different sources, just wish we could get a 'final' answer (yeah, right).
Grr armory is being annoying right now. Did you have double Mongoose up at the time? I've been running with Mongoose/Crusader recently, partly to avoid double procs. I figure once I start getting access to a significant amount of haste items I can put them all on at once to try and skip over the dead spot.
Dunno it was mid raid at the time and I didn't check when we got done. I'll check the screen cap when I get home around 4 EST today. I do use double mongoose though.
Thanks for the reply, I'll definetly be using the dagger in my MH next Kael.
Stig, I hadn't even thought of looting them both and using the axe until kael was up /facepalm. Thanks for the input!
In my opinion, use the dagger as the offhand.
I currently use the tier3 one handed axe from blacksmithing main hand and the al'ar axe in my offhand.
I found that putting the kael dagger in offhand is alot better, that way you stil have some nice main hand wf and the 2.0speed of the dagger isnt optimal but it isnt bad dmg.
But the way we do kael, with 2 rogues, its not needed for me to actually put the debuff on the mob we are attacking. If this is diffrent with your strat, then main hand dagger could be a better option.
Too bad they didnt implement a ONE-handed axe as one of the weapons. imagine the dmg
Just a quick note, under the "Calculating your Windfury Damage" section you list 16 AP as 1 DPS, when it's 14. I don't have anything more useful to contribute to this thread, just using it to help me level my shaman. Carry on, and thanks for all your work.
Most enhancement shaman I've seen in armory are 0/42/19 or 0/41/20. We only really want Nature's Guidance and Totemic Mastery out of the Resto tree, but we usually pick up more resto talents after those - like Healing Focus.
Why not pick up Concussion? My recap shows me doing about 10% of my damage from shocks, and I have seen that pecentage referenced elsewhere on EJ. Concussion should give us half of a percentage of our total damage output.
I understand that boosting our shocks is typically immediatley dismissed because improving melee is more productive, but in this case we don't have any melee choices left.
I see the usefulness of having a slight chance on uninterrupted heals on myself when in combat so I always pick up 3 pts of Healing Focus. Its like the one PvP survivability talent I can pick up too.
Why not pick up Concussion? My recap shows me doing about 10% of my damage from shocks, and I have seen that pecentage referenced elsewhere on EJ. Concussion should give us half of a percentage of our total damage output.
I understand that boosting our shocks is typically immediatley dismissed because improving melee is more productive, but in this case we don't have any melee choices left.
After speccing back from pvp resto, I decided to try out going enh/resto for a little bit instead of my normal enh/ele build. Which had me settling on this for now. I didn't see any reason not to get concussion from the other choices available.
I realized how little I'm able to effectively spot heal in most raids, and when I do it's usually a lesser HW without much else hitting me anyway.
The test showed that when I let a mob beat on me and built up threat on it with lightning shield, he could pull aggro off me earlier than we'd expect if Spirit Weapons was working.
Most likely the reason you got the results you did for this test is that Spirit Weapons has only ever reduced threat generated from melee attacks. It would be nice if it worked for spells too =) or at least shocks.
07/17/07, 5:58 AM
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