Disregarding that, I prefer Tier 6 because it offers me more survivability for a little drop in DPS. It's also a hell of a lot easier to keep up Twisting with the added intellect. Don't get me wrong, I know you can sustain Twisting with the other set too (I've done it before) but the t6 gives me a little more leeway with it in case we have no Ret Paladin with us and JoW falls off. All in all it depends on my mood. If I want to break DPS records, I'll use nonset. If I want a calm evening with a little more leeway to survive AoE damage and whatever you want to name, I'll wear Tier 6.
I talked about the small difference between FIVE piece t6 + mail drops (teron boots, ros belt) and all the random leather gear (hydross shoulder, vashj belt) a few pages back, with "perfect" gear in a perfect situation, the difference is around 5% dps or 60-80 dps.
Comparing the raw stats, you could think it should be a much bigger difference. But i did several (about 8-10 each) 50.000 hours simulations to proof this.
-Mail-
AP 1730
Crit 31.55
Hit 14.84
ArP 350
Haste 0%
Exp 0%
(+ ~ 3.000 mana to spent for twisting and +1.21% spellcrit)
-Leather-
AP 1828
Crit 34.41
Hit 11.54
ArP 350
Haste 2.35%
Exp -2%
Comparing items, which are on the same itemlevel but on our ep comparisons 20-30% better/worse and have in the end only such a small impact on your possible max dps makes me sad. There is no real need to buff tier 6, nor a season 3 over a bt weapon or cursed vision over tier 4 helmet improves our dps by such a wide margin like it does for other dps classes. It might feel better from looking at the back of your character and seeing differend shoulder design every few month, but my dps didn't jump like mad since i got my t4/t5 gear, but our rogues/fury ones did. Don't understand my wrong, i don't wand to make this post a whining post, just wanted to support Illundai claim by a personal note.
I am totally a replacement healer on raids. Every eye beam went on one side last week so I got to spam chain heal for 4 minutes. The beauty and glory of the yellow beams was overwhelming. Almost as overwhelming as a plastic bag,
Son, to me a robot's just a garbage can with sparks comin' out it.
I don't know about you, but I don't think that's going to make a HUGE difference as you're trying to claim. A difference, sure. But not a big one.
Oh, I'm not claiming HUGE differences in DPS. I'm saying I don't buy the original claim that "the difference is so marginally small". I didn't calculate the set bonus which will reduce the EP gap so it's not as terrifying as I first thought. I should of course have asked you what you meant "small" is in this case, but IMHO we should refrain from such without numbers in a theorycrafting thread.
PS: Raevii?
Baby, you can hold my balls.
10:10 < buu_> Raut: You are a hero of the internet.
Oh, I'm not claiming HUGE differences in DPS. I'm saying I don't buy the original claim that "the difference is so marginally small". I didn't calculate the set bonus which will reduce the EP gap so it's not as terrifying as I first thought. I should of course have asked you what you meant "small" is in this case, but IMHO we should refrain from such without numbers in a theorycrafting thread.
Misunderstanding from both sides, which is okay. Maybe marginally small is exaggerated, but I honestly think it matters very little - it's personal flavour. Do you like the extra stam/int? Or do you not care and want to push DPS all the time? It's a bit like the Ele vs Resto discussion.
I know this isn't theorycrafting, but damn Bragor, that is really a clown suit.
Wish I had some actual numbers to support/disprove T6 as a replacement. But all I've got is the same thing I harp on all the time.
STAMINA: tier 6 swims in the stuff.
Tier6 offers a gigantic bucket of stamina over the best non-tier pieces, and it reduces the cost of your shocks. These two benefits make it very appropriate for fighting the Illidari council where you won't get anywhere near a full shamanistic rage's worth of mana back.
YOUR RAID: our loot rules and raid luck have left me in non-tier healing pieces, ymmv.
Your raid's luck and loot rules will influence whether you wear cursed vision and midnight chest much, much, much more than whether non-set provides 100DPS more or just 20DPS more than taking tier6.
We've had 1 cursed vision drop and zero midnight chestguards, we only killed vashj 6 times or so, zero belts/shoulders but dammit we literally got 7 cobra-lash boots out of 6 kills (ok, that's an exaggeration).
Pretty soon, you'll get 3 tier6 tokens, but Archi will drop the same damn 2handed sword and bow again... week after week. Your rogues already 2 bristles each, but there it is again... If it wasn't for attunements, you'd have sold Archimonde slots to pug hunters because the bow will drop.... sorry for the rant.
My rogues love me and gave me the first Midnight Chestguard that dropped for us last week. Its so awesome to have a melee group that works together and appreciates their Enhance Shaman
My rogues love me and gave me the first Midnight Chestguard that dropped for us last week. Its so awesome to have a melee group that works together and appreciates their Enhance Shaman
WFT is the best hostage ever.
With the new talents the t6 2p is pretty much useless, I'm hoping the 6.5 itemization will be a little better.
QFT. Since we mostly just do 10-mans, our "melee" group is really me, tanking warrior, feral druid, sword rogue, hunter. The rogue and I get along wonderfully, but I still threaten to take WF away from him when he does something stupid. It works every time.
Now I am fully aware of the meta gem and what it brings to the table. I am just wondering and which helm would put out more stats in a raid environment.
I was mentioning to a fairly skilled t6 raider on my server the other week that [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] were a bit better (~20 EP) than the [Cobra-Lash Boots] he was wearing.
His answer was, "Dude, if my raid saw I traded a Vashj drop for Karazhan badge gear, I'd never raid with them again."
He went on to mention that he doesn't drop WFT. Apparently in his raid, first priority goes to the raiders with the top numbers in parses. When he drops WFT, his DPS proportional to his rogues' DPS went way down, and he gets bumped for not pulling his weight. So he drops GoA.
Point is there's lots of reasons why we don't follow theorycraft. That doesn't change the theory.
I am looking for a comparison between these two helms.
Hey, it's cool if you can't figure out tools like the simulator, because there are even easier tools that don't involve us doing your math homework. They're much less accurate, but they're easy. Go to MaxDPS.com - Enhancement Shaman DPS Gear Rankings and enter your stats. Notice how the one helm is really far down the list, and the other is sort of near the top? Guess which one's better!
Now I am fully aware of the meta gem and what it brings to the table. I am just wondering and which helm would put out more stats in a raid environment.
Thank you for your help.
The Gladiator's helm with the meta will provide superior DPS. Even without the 3% crit damage, the overall AP/hit/crit stats point toward better damage with the Gladiator's helm. Add in the additional effect from the meta, and it gets even better. Hope that helps.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
I was mentioning to a fairly skilled t6 raider on my server the other week that [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] were a bit better (~20 EP) than the [Cobra-Lash Boots] he was wearing.
His answer was, "Dude, if my raid saw I traded a Vashj drop for Karazhan badge gear, I'd never raid with them again."
He went on to mention that he doesn't drop WFT. Apparently in his raid, first priority goes to the raiders with the top numbers in parses. When he drops WFT, his DPS proportional to his rogues' DPS went way down, and he gets bumped for not pulling his weight. So he drops GoA.
Point is there's lots of reasons why we don't follow theorycraft. That doesn't change the theory.
Have him kindly point his raid leader to this thread and some math showing how to determine what gear is better than others. If my raid leader didn't trust that I know what I was doing upgrading from [Beastmaw Pauldrons] to [Wastewalker Shoulderpads] before I had ZA shoulders, I'd be Looking For Guild. Similarly, if his raid leader doesn't understand that an enhancement shaman brings his actual DPS + the sum of the DPS from buffs he gives his group, and that sometimes he is willing to sacrifice his own damage for the betterment of the raid, I'm very surprised they've gotten as far as they have. I'd also be Looking For Guild.
Hello everyone. I was wondering if it would be a good idea to maybe add ballpark sustained dps figures to the wiki or this post for various end-game boss fights for people to use as a comparison.
Given average T5/T6 gear, and using the idea melee group listed on page one, is there a shaman out there who has a lot of WWS data available to provide these numbers?
E.g.
Teron Gorefiend: 1600 dps
Illidari Council: 1100 dps
etc.
Of course, dps changes from fight to fight depending on many factors including your gear, your group, etc, but thats why im stressing "ballpark" figures.
Sebudai probably has enough parses to give a good average on that kind of thing. I would have had enough too, if it wasn't for WWS deleting about 90% of my parses yesterday, so I only have about 3 weeks worth of parses >.>
Teron depends extremly on your fight lengths. How many heroism/drums/hastepots/trinket cooldowns you can use in this time and so on.
Twisting on Teron, Rage and Anetheron with your gear level, a fury warrior's battle shout OR a feral's lotp, zero drums or haste potions, no recklessness or expose armor and one heroism during an 5-6 minute fight -> 1000 dps.
Council 850 dps without twisting.
Mother 750 dps without twisting (for obvious reasons).
But why don't you ran the simulator and multiply the given dps with 0.8 (20% human error) or check the huge wws pool for some data.
Rage: If you have a lot of death and decay on your tank, you can't dps.
Anetheron: If you have all of the infernals on the melees, you have to save your ass.
Council: If you can't trust your camphealer for any reason (eg. they struggle or they are dead), have a lot of aoe in melee range beside the consecrate, you can't dps.
If someone didn't keep up an important buff all the time and you didn't realise it, the data will be corrupted.
If you can't reach the given number or break them easily, it says nothing. Did you shock enough and didn't break the record? Critluck was with everyone expect you? I have some parses with over 50% critrate and another log with +- 10 seconds lengths of the fight, same gear and makeup and 15% less crit.
Loud and clear. Ill try to scrape together some averages from the public WWS data available once the WWS site gets a little more stable (laggy for anyone else?). I would just like to see some averages, under normal circumstances, average fight durations, etc. Just something new shamans can use as an anchor in analyzing their own WWS reports (as opposed to linking them here :P).
Well I can give you numbers if all else fails, but I don't have more than 2 or 3 parses per boss.
Changing the subject a bit, I didn't see any discussion of proper cooldown stacking in the OP. I noticed in your Teron kill, Illundai, that you didn't seem to stack haste cooldowns much. Is this intentional? I would think that using Drums of Battle/Haste Pot/Berserker's Call all together at the start would provide the largest benefit, and then 2m later you could use those 3 again along with Shamanistic Rage and Heroism. Or Shamanistic Rage earlier, if you don't want to wait the 2m to start getting mana back.
Forgive me if I'm missing some commonly known fact about haste usage on a shaman, trying to get some TC knowledge from this thread to prep for raiding on a shaman in the exp; currently I raid exclusively on a paladin.
02/07/08, 2:10 PM
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