Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 275

Rob · 02/08/08, 6:59 PM

Originally Posted by johnnysd

What is the daily BG?

Offtopic for this thread, but here's a guide.

Toots Hepcat · 02/08/08, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by Rob

If your tank is good or your gear is bad you can open with Stormstrike, Flame Shock, totems, Earth Shock. If your tank needs time to grab aggro, drop totems first (WF if he's a warrior, it will give you more room on threat) and then start in on the DPS.

Wait, you start in with DPS BEFORE you drop totems? What's your reasoning behind that? Just eager to get started, or does dropping the totems start the timer WWS/Recount use to calculate your DPS (I assumed it wouldn't)?

I usually drop totems before the pull if possible, otherwise on the run in. If the tank has a good aggro footing, I open with flame shock while still closing the distance, SS, etc. Otherwise I just autoattack and ease into things.

Dukanull · 02/08/08, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by Joy

Too be honest I've never attempted to outrange it, I usually use deviates to minimize my FA hitbox.
Just never get silenced more than a handful of times.

I'm silenced for like half the time during that fight, granted i barely wear any SR, but it's one of the most annoying twisting situations in the world (next to being ele/enhance with a hunter in your group).

Dukanull · 02/08/08, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Wait, you start in with DPS BEFORE you drop totems? What's your reasoning behind that? Just eager to get started, or does dropping the totems start the timer WWS/Recount use to calculate your DPS (I assumed it wouldn't)?

I usually drop totems before the pull if possible, otherwise on the run in. If the tank has a good aggro footing, I open with flame shock while still closing the distance, SS, etc. Otherwise I just autoattack and ease into things.

I run up, autoattack (seem to remember reading that opening with SS could mess up your wf and give the OH the benefit or something), SoE, wf, GoA, SS, then start my shock cycles. I also blow trinkets/haste pot/drums/heroism off the first 5 seconds of most fights as well, so i like to get all the buffs up since SoE/GoA/WFT scale so well with the haste I'm giving the group.

Kyuki · 02/08/08, 7:22 PM

Originally Posted by Imperator

I'd like to see those numbers replicated on future attempts. Not trying to knock you, especially since you normally play resto, but my guess is that you just hit a pretty lucky streak. That's the wonderful and the terrible thing about Windfury. Sometimes you get lucky at it procs wonderfully and you hit big crits every time. Sometimes it doesn't proc all that well and you get rather mediocre crits. Of course the slumps can be mitigated by rolling with 2.6 speeders and whatnot, but you can still hit huge valleys for certain fights as well as huge peaks.

I've done entire SSC/TK runs where my damage was 100-200/300 DPS off my norm with no changes from the previous week. I'm talking same buffs, personnel, everything equal.

So, I think you'll probably be around 1000-1100 DPS normally (which is still awesome) and you got a nice fight in at 1358. Probably not consistently repeatable with that gear tho.

I seriously doubt that you actually looked at the parse (Malan, did you even?). I had a pretty bad streak on WF crits and SS crits. I'm almost at 33% crit unbuffed, and with kings and lotp I'm around 40. Let's add dual mongoose uptime and I'm closer to 45% than 35%.

I know the nature of procs and specials you use less often can vary alot, but it was clearly not like they were in my favor.

Why can't you use my log that I posted and tell me why we should just brush it off as luck instead of just doing what you're doing now. Implying.

Or, let's just wave it off as a lucky shot so we can make you happy.

.

---

Illundai: The only reason I posted here to begin with was because I thought that 1000 DPS was the low end a enh shammy should do at Teron. I'd expect someone who has raided as enhancement up to Teron would have better gear than me, and while I produced 1350 DPS I questioned it - which wasnt very welcome obviously...

Also, just for fun, I plugged my values into Yo!s sim (10 000 hours), and let me see if I got this right:

Buffs and stuff to begin with:
gotw
lotp
FF
EW
Kings
imp might
Misery
SoE - Some other guy eating my SS.
CoE
Maledection
CoR
BS
SA
Commanding Pressence
and a Flask.

Double Mongoose
Hourglass
RED
Earth+Fire

1 AP = 1 EP?
1 EP = 0.3121 DPS (for me)

5% crit = 110 crit rating. Crit has a value of 1.78 for me.

5% = 61.8 EP for me in that case?

61.8 EP = 19.3 DPS? (0.3121 modifier)

Am I off on this? Can you even translate it like this?
If so, that would mean lotp would give me some 20~ DPS. That's not bad, but it's not really close to 100 (in my case).

Pitbuller · 02/08/08, 7:31 PM

I just entered Kyuki yuor numbers + buffs + debuffs to YO's I also accounts bloodlust time + drums + 40shock/4:32.
1280 DPS w/o searing.

Lotp:
110*1.78 = 195.8ep
195.8 * 0.3121 = 61dps

Luck was +80dps factor.

Kyuki · 02/08/08, 7:36 PM

I'm not that great with the tool, but how can you do that?
I just implemented my pure stats, and the buffs that I said in my previous post, and did a 10000 and came out with 1377 DPS, that would disclude any use of drums and bloodlust no?

Would love to know how you can see can add bloodlust and time spent in combat and all that.

Pitbuller · 02/08/08, 7:46 PM

23:13'10.263 Smallo's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 150 (glancing) (6 resisted)
23:13'20.470 Kyuki's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 621

4:42 - 10s = 4min32s
Bloodlust is 40s
Drums...

You can calculate avarage haste and put it to haste box.(its not best way model it but its do the job)

Kyuki · 02/08/08, 7:51 PM

Oki, did you then do DPS over a course of 4.32 in the sim?

And

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

Lotp:
110*1.78 = 195.8ep
195.8 * 0.3121 = 61dps

Thanks, obvious mistake on my math there...

Kyuki · 02/08/08, 7:56 PM

Okey, you can't do it for a 4.32 min duration, I get it now... Sorry.

Is my math wrong if Heroism of 4.32 min is 8.4% average Haste?

Pitbuller · 02/08/08, 7:57 PM

I tryed do my best to emulate short fight with CD usage + buff modelling.

Edit: 40 / 272 * 0.4 = 5.9%

Kyuki · 02/08/08, 8:04 PM

Did another sim for DPS, added exactly what I had buffwise in the raid, and removed what I didnt have.
Added exact value for my stats.

If heroism comes out as 8.4% average at 4.32 min fight I came out with 1438 DPS and I did not add the Drums haste.

Remove Searing Totem and I come out with 1371 DPS.

Luck factor was -12 DPS.

Illundai · 02/08/08, 8:11 PM

What exactly are you discussing right now? I can't believe what I'm seeying.

First of all, modelling a xx:xx duration fight with the sim, including haste and all of that is never going to be accurate. It's a moot point to say: "HAH THE SIM SAYS I DID TOO LITTLE OR TOO MUCH DPS!".
Second of all, whats the big deal? He did 1400 dps with his crappy gear, good for him. He had buffs you didn't have perhaps, he had debuffs you didn't have perhaps. His WWS is tainted maybe, who knows. It's hardly relevant to anything to just start analyzing his WWS or his theoretical DPS. What IS relevant is to ask what he did different from you perhaps.

Next to all of that, I have a hard time believing 5% crit is only 60 DPS. For me, having LOTP or not having LOTP is huge.

Kyuki · 02/08/08, 8:12 PM

Aye, my formula was off again...

Redid it again, and came out with 1350 sharp without Searing totem and no drums.

Am I right now? Sounds like I was close to Sim value on this fight then.

Kyuki · 02/08/08, 8:14 PM

Illundai, I'm discussing about myself. Was me who did the 1400 DPS with my crappy gear...

I just want to know why it was brushed off as luck, and that's all.

Also, Lotp gave me those value. Obviously I do 1k less DPS than you on Teron Gorefiend. I'm sure lotp gives you a higher DPS value.

Malan · 02/08/08, 8:16 PM

Originally Posted by Kyuki

I seriously doubt that you actually looked at the parse (Malan, did you even?)

Yes, I did. And I said as much up above. I compared it to several of my own, and stated my conclusions.

which wasnt very welcome obviously...

Welcome had nothing to do with it. You stated that you had a DPS value which I thought was odd because it was above my own averages, and minus 1-2 items of gear I'd say that on average I out gear your enhancement set. Thats why we asked for the WWS parse. And lo and behold, your initial figure was wrong.

Nobody is attacking you here, but you're being overly defensive.

By the way, you didn't have any drums at all on that parse, so drop those out of your theoretical numbers from the sim.
Kyuki - WWS

Illundai · 02/08/08, 8:18 PM

I wasn't talking about just you, there were plenty of people who couldn't believe you would do 1400 DPS. I'm pretty sure I did 1400 with the kind of gear you're wearing too. I switched to Enhancement after being Resto for a looooong time after killing Illidan, wearing Tier 4 and I did 1200 dps on Teron multiple times.

Kyuki · 02/08/08, 8:22 PM

I noticed that the parse didnt show the drums aswell, but I really remember getting it, but I probably did at some other point during the raid in that case...

I might come out as overly defensive, but come on, the only reason I posted was to say that I thought that 1k DPS seems to be on the low end for a raiding Enh shammy on Teron. I then said how much DPS I created with my not up to par gear as a example to why I thought so.

Every direction after that was on how "rediculous" my statement was. Is it so strange that I go defensive mode then when getting attacked on something I didnt tried to point at (Even if it may have looked like it, first point still stands).

Imperator · 02/08/08, 8:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kyuki

I noticed that the parse didnt show the drums aswell, but I really remember getting it, but I probably did at some other point during the raid in that case...

I might come out as overly defensive, but come on, the only reason I posted was to say that I thought that 1k DPS seems to be on the low end for a raiding Enh shammy on Teron. I then said how much DPS I created with my not up to par gear as a example to why I thought so.

Every direction after that was on how "rediculous" my statement was. Is it so strange that I go defensive mode then when getting attacked on something I didnt tried to point at (Even if it may have looked like it, first point still stands).

First of all, you are NOT the fury. There's a guy in my guild that runs an alt elemental shammy and he brought it into TK the other week with nothing but Kara gear and out-dpsed everyone but the rogues and I.

Second of all, nobody is knocking you at all. In fact, doing anywhere near that DPS on Teron (whom I haven't gotten to yet) is spectacular. Congrats!

Third of all, your assertion was that 1000 DPS was the "low" end for DPS on Teron. You then used your own experience as justification for that assertion. Well, everyone else knows what they did on him and obviously it was around what you were, but with better gear. Thus the reasonable conclusion that you had a fairly lucky streak going, especially since you yourself said that you were undergeared for the attempt. Your attempt got critiqued because it was what we had to go on.

There really isn't a "low" end for any fight. There's going to be enhancement shamans in BT pimping 1.5 speed OH daggers and with +hit gems all throughout their gear. For the people that follow the advice on this site maybe 1000 DPS is low, tho I would guess anything 1000+ is good for anyone making the attempt considering that most people are going to vary wildly on gear even when attempting Teron.

Finally, chill out bro! Obviously you know what you're doing to pimp that much DPS on Teron, luck or no. Thanks for making the Enhance Shammy population proud and smoke a bowl or two so next time when you throw up a post you don't freak out when someone doesn't slobber all over how swell it was.

Rob · 02/08/08, 9:35 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Wait, you start in with DPS BEFORE you drop totems? What's your reasoning behind that?

My advice there was tuned to a 5-man instance. If you're moving quickly from pull to pull, yes, I do Stormstrike before I hit totems. In a raid, it depends. Do I have time to set up (e.g. Illidan)? Then of course I drop my totems first. If not, I may drop my totems on the run in if positioning dictates that I can (e.g. Hydross, where it's beneficial, or Naj'entus, where it doesn't matter) or I may wait until I'm on top of the boss before I drop totems (e.g. Archimonde, where I am worried about getting in the right position first). Obviously, I'll also open with FS if that's a smart idea. Overall, though, supposing we're talking about the last case, where you can either start DPS *or* drop totems, I definitely think it makes sense to at least get your autoattack going because it will be doing damage during the 4x1.5s GCDs where you're dropping totems, and I guarantee that the impact of you getting 4 white attacks and a possible WF proc is greater than the impact of that last totem being up slightly later. I have one key bound to "/cast Stormstrike /startattack", so I usually do open with Stormstrike before I even autoattack.

Originally Posted by Dukanull

I run up, autoattack (seem to remember reading that opening with SS could mess up your wf and give the OH the benefit or something)

My understanding is that if you turn on autoattack when you're not in range, you will attack first with the OH and if you are running two 2.6 speed weapons that gives your OH more WF procs over time. Stormstrike should not have this problem unless you use it when you're not in range (in which case autoattack would still have the problem).

Kyuki · 02/08/08, 9:48 PM

Ahh, O_O

I still think 1k DPS is the lower end of what a enh shammy should do at Teron. :P

Rob · 02/08/08, 10:38 PM

1k DPS seems like a reasonable low end for Gorefiend to me, assuming you're not getting a free ride and are at a reasonable gear level given that your guild is at Teron.

Looking at my IM logs to my friend, on Jan 22nd I managed 1612 DPS, and I don't think my gear is that great. Buffs besides my own were BS, ret paladin, and 1 drums use, and I was twisting. I don't know what I got last week, but it was probably in the neighborhood of 1400 I'd guess. Didn't do Gorefiend this week.

Not that any of this really matters, but I wouldn't crucify the guy for suggesting that 1k DPS is a good floor on that particular fight.

Rob · 02/09/08, 12:06 AM

OK, here's about the only relevant 2.4 change to our DPS:
Warriors
* Flurry will properly refresh if a crit occurs with 1 charge left.

When PTRs come up, we need to ensure that applies to us as well.

Ilmatar · 02/09/08, 2:02 AM

* Call of Thunder: (Rank 5) now gives 5% critical strike chance.

Is this a typo?

frozndevl · 02/09/08, 2:03 AM

Originally Posted by Rob

OK, here's about the only relevant 2.4 change to our DPS:
Warriors
* Flurry will properly refresh if a crit occurs with 1 charge left.

When PTRs come up, we need to ensure that applies to us as well.

Also, this

Call of Thunder: (Rank 5) now gives 5% critical strike chance.

If that isn't a typo and in fact gives melee crit not spell crit, then do we go for that or do we stick with our resto hit?