Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 278

Malan · 10/21/07, 9:17 PM

Originally Posted by Stallo

And ontop of this, the rest of the stats are more or less directly linked to it. Simply because you do not get flurries, nor do you get wf's when you miss..

No, that's not how the attack table works. If you have a 30% crit rate, then 30% of all your swings are crits. The attack table doesn't check for a hit and then a crit, it is either a hit or a crit. They are two seperate and unique events. There's plenty of info available on these forums about this, not to mention that I explicitly mention it in the OP in several places as being a complete fallacy.

Toots Hepcat · 10/21/07, 9:24 PM

"whats the point of AP, crits and hits(sic), when you miss."

For the missed swing? None.

But you can't think of dps in terms of potential for each swing. You have to think of it over time. And over time, you get less of a benefit from HitR than you do from other stats.

Sebudai · 10/21/07, 9:48 PM

The amount of people who struggle with even the most basic mathematical concepts or view math as some form of archaic sorcery that is not to be trusted is actually pretty surprising.

This thread is literally over 150 pages long at this point, and you're going to come here, ignore everything that has been posted before, and question our calculations off of some retarded hunch like "but you can't crit if you don't hit lol". You honestly think something like that hasn't been covered in a thread that is 167 pages long? Seriously? Jesus Christ. PLEASE read the thread before you post a question.

BoinKlasik · 10/22/07, 3:12 AM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

The amount of people who struggle with even the most basic mathematical concepts or view math as some form of archaic sorcery that is not to be trusted is actually pretty surprising.

This thread is literally over 150 pages long at this point, and you're going to come here, ignore everything that has been posted before, and question our calculations off of some retarded hunch like "but you can't crit if you don't hit lol". You honestly think something like that hasn't been covered in a thread that is 167 pages long? Seriously? Jesus Christ. PLEASE read the thread before you post a question.

Dude, did you know theres like this, 3 second cooldown on Windfury?

/boggle

Kharg · 10/22/07, 3:23 AM

I've read a good deal of this thread, and I must say that the amount of work you guys have put into it is amazing. I haven't had the time to read it all thoroughly (and I've been visiting the thread on a regular basis for quite some time), so you will have to excuse me if my question is answered somewhere in this thread...

My interest is purely PvP, and most of the calculations in this thread is for raid purposes. I'd desperately want to see if enhancement will be somewhat viable in PvP after patch 2.3, but it's kinda hard to find a PvP discussion that's interesting at all. Is there a similar thread/forum that discusses the PvP aspects, and have you thought about making a PvP section in the OP?

Darkmantle · 10/22/07, 3:23 AM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

The amount of people who struggle with even the most basic mathematical concepts or view math as some form of archaic sorcery that is not to be trusted is actually pretty surprising.

While I'm a naturally mathematical person I've meet plenty of people who have this view. I think its partially to do withe the way some people are taught mathematics. In the early years of mathematics educations things are often explained by "use this formula and you will get the answer" it is a rare teacher who can help students that have little mathematical gift to see the underlying structure and order that connects all mathematics and hence have faith in the calculations done from them.

To many people it is archaic sorcery. Though at least I think that is a better attitude than some people who are proud of their lack of mathematical knowledge/understanding because of some idea about it being associated with geekiness and/or elitism.

Mox · 10/22/07, 6:13 AM

Originally Posted by Morelis

You'd have to have some pretty crazy AEP values for hit for this to be true. With crit/agi at 2.0 you'd need hit to score 3.8 before the moccasins become the superior choice.

When I ran Yo's sim to decide which to get the moccasions came out @ 1403 dps and the shadowmasters @ 1407 dps. I didn't really consider a 4 dps gain a superior choice in this situation.

Akkron · 10/22/07, 6:19 AM

I was bored and decided to run some quick tests on the differences in # of MH and OH windfury procs with different speed weapons over a short combat duration.

I noticed Yo's sim doesn't seem to calculate too much of a dps difference when you change the weapon speeds around but I figure that its programmed to assume constant dps. But with the way Raid encounters are designed, Gruul's Shatters, Vashj's entangles, Leotheras' Whirlwind, etc... I wanted to see what weapon would proc the most mainhand hits reliably when only given a short chance to attack.

M represents a mainhand proc, O an offhand.

2.7 Mainhand / 2.6 Offhand
TEST 1: m-m-m-o-o-o-m-o-m-m-o-o-m-m-m-o-o-o-o-o
Total MH Procs: 9
Total OH Procs: 11
TEST 2: o-m-o-m-o-o-m-o-o-m-o-o-o-m-m-m-o-o-o-m
Total MH Procs: 8
Total OH Procs: 12
TEST 3: m-o-o-o-m-m-o-m-o-m-o-o-m-o-o-m-o-o-m-o
Total MH Procs: 8
Total OH Procs: 12
TEST 4: o-o-o-o-m-o-o-o-o-o-o-m-m-o-m-o-m-o-o-o
Total MH Procs: 5
Total OH Procs: 15
TEST 5: m-m-m-m-o-m-m-m-o-o-o-o-o-o-m-m-m-o-o-o
Total MH Procs: 10
Total OH PRocs: 10

2.7/2.6 Total MH Procs: 40
2.7/2.6 Total OH Procs: 60
2.7/2.6 Average MH Procs: 8
2.7/2.6 Average OH Procs: 12

2.6 Mainhand / 2.6 Offhand
TEST 1: o-o-m-m-m-m-m-o-m-m-o-m-m-o-o-o-m-m-m-m
Total MH Procs: 13
Total OH Procs: 7
TEST 2: m-m-m-o-o-o-o-m-m-o-o-o-o-m-m-m-m-m-m-m
Total MH Procs: 12
Total OH Procs: 8
TEST 3: m-m-m-m-o-m-m-m-m-m-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-m-m
Total MH Procs: 11
Total OH Procs: 9
TEST 4: m-m-o-m-m-m-o-o-m-m-o-o-o-m-o-m-o-m-m-m
Total MH Procs: 12
Total OH Procs: 8
TEST 5: m-m-m-m-o-m-o-o-o-m-o-m-m-m-m-m-o-m-o-m
Total MH Procs: 13
Total OH Procs: 7

2.6/2.6 Total MH Procs: 61
2.6/2.6 Total OH Procs: 39
2.6/2.6 Average MH Procs: 12.2
2.6/2.6 Average OH Procs: 7.8

2.7 Mainhand / 2.9 Offhand
TEST 1: m-m-m-m-o-m-m-o-m-m-m-m-m-o-o-o-m-m-o-m
Total MH Procs: 14
Total OH Procs: 6
TEST 2: o-m-m-o-m-m-o-o-m-o-m-o-o-o-m-m-o-m-o-o
Total MH Procs: 9 
Total OH Procs: 11
TEST 3: m-m-m-m-m-m-o-m-m-m-m-m-m-o-m-m-o-m-m-o
Total MH Procs: 15
Total OH Procs: 5
TEST 4: o-o-o-m-m-o-m-o-o-m-m-m-o-m-m-m-m-o-m-0
Total MH Procs: 11
Total OH Procs: 9
TEST 5: o-m-m-m-o-o-m-o-o-o-o-m-m-o-o-m-o-m-o-o
Total MH Procs: 8
Total OH Procs: 12

2.7/2.9 Total MH Procs: 57
2.7/2.9 Total OH Procs: 43
2.7/2.9 Average MH Procs: 11.4
2.7/2.9 Average OH Procs: 8.6

A 2.6 Mainhand and Offhand combo produced the most consistant numbers, ranging in only a 2 proc difference between the offhand and mainhand over the course of tests. Mainhanding a 2.7 speed weapon with a 2.6 speed offhand yielded a lower rate of mainhand windfury procs for the entire test. And differing speed weapons were more effective than that, but spiky.

I realize this is a very very short pool of data to work with but meh, I figure every little bit can help, and was just curious what kinda figures I could get within a short period of time.

Shakkha · 10/22/07, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Akkron

A 2.6 Mainhand and Offhand combo produced the most consistant numbers, ranging in only a 2 proc difference between the offhand and mainhand over the course of tests. Mainhanding a 2.7 speed weapon with a 2.6 speed offhand yielded a lower rate of mainhand windfury procs for the entire test. And differing speed weapons were more effective than that, but spiky.

I realize this is a very very short pool of data to work with but meh, I figure every little bit can help, and was just curious what kinda figures I could get within a short period of time.

very interesting post.

I just wish we could have had a larger sample to get really relevant datas, but as i'm currently dual wielding 2.70spd weapons, your data seem to say that the OH windfury procs wouldn't be such an issue.

Griff · 10/22/07, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

The first 5 weapon skill is worth 3% hit and 0.2% crit as well as an unknown amount of anti-parry and anti-dodge.

For orcs
You will want to choose axes since your racial gives you 3% hit and 0.2% crit as well as an unknown amount of anti-parry and anti-dodge if you equip an axe.

Is there a test you've done that proved this? Not that im denying it, would just like to see how you came to this conclusion.

Stigmata · 10/22/07, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Griff

Is there a test you've done that proved this? Not that im denying it, would just like to see how you came to this conclusion.

Weapon skill is being reworked in 2.3 so I wouldn't read to much into that info.

Nite_Moogle · 10/22/07, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Griff

Is there a test you've done that proved this? Not that im denying it, would just like to see how you came to this conclusion.

There's a thread on weapon skill that had some extensive testing done, but it's somewhat of a moot point now that the racial bonus is being changed to 1% crit next patch. It still makes axes choice weapons for orcs, and expertise is still quite good.

Griff · 10/22/07, 10:25 AM

Thanks for quick reply. I know it's getting changed, i was just curious as to how it was worked out. There are also a couple of people in my guild who nay say.

Varag · 10/22/07, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle

It's weapon speed dependent, so it's not a straight conversion.

+weapon damage amount / weapon speed = equivalent DPS
2/2.6 = .75
equivalent DPS * 14 = equivalent AP
10.5 AP

With BoK and UR, 4 stats is a little over 9 AP so the difference is very minimal in terms of raw AP, but there's also benefit from the other stats (namely some crit) that makes +stats a better ring enchant.

As I imagine the theorycraft on this still holds, and to prevent the numerous questions that will likely be generated related to this with the Stats to ring enchant being made available on Lower City faction, can we add a little snippet to the front page on Ring enchants recommending Stats over Striking?

Patonus · 10/22/07, 10:46 AM

I'm glad you added back the Pawn string for people to use. I think some people that didn't understand it well probably had a hard time formatting the string.

I'd like to add that you should add in the Armor Pen into it to help evaluate the new gear that's coming out with it.

( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Pater/Tornhoof)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, HasteRating=1.48, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1, ArmorPenetratioin=.25 )