Storming

i never said the OP specifically proposed to not bother with hit beyond talents.

i understand the concept of some situations showing stats to be greater overall benefit than hit. thats not what im talking about either.

im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.

 

Vernichter

As a follow-up to Diogo's comment, there is a theoretical point in the itemization where you would naturally become hit-capped because your total item budget would be so large that hit-capping would be an optimal use of that budget. However, we aren't at the ilvl where that would happen, and it is unlikely that it ever will with current mechanics. Simply put, between AP/Str, Crit, Agi, hit, expertise, haste, and hit, there are just too many stats to dump itemization points into, and a number of them give better returns per point than +hit, assuming that your gear is relatively balanced.

 

Shiyo

We aren't casters. Each spell a caster uses is affected by being hitcapped. Casters also require less hit rating to become hit capped compared to a dual wield class, and spell hit and melee hit cost equal in the item budget.

 

Rhagok

In this situation you are definitel right, if you do not account for dmg just for Hits and misses then definitely hit is a great stat ^^

If however you are just trying to do as much dmg as possible you should not gimp yourself so massively by choosing gear with lots of hit if there is better gear available.

Originaly posted by Sebudai

 

◊ Rob

And that's why you're not raid leader?

Seriously, though. You don't need to provide justification for "not being hitcapped". You don't prove a negative. What you do is provide justification for being hitcapped. So far nobody has proven that doing so will produce better damage than not being hitcapped, because with current itemization it simply does not.

Here is an explanation for why pursuing hitcap is an unproductive strategy for enhancement shamans:
If you have 9% +hit from talents, or ~50 hit rating and 6% +hit from talents, your "yellow" attacks (Windfury and Stormstrike) will never miss. Therefore, hit rating affects only about 50% of your damage. Critical strike rating affects 90% of your damage, so it delivers better returns. Strength (and attack power) affect 100% of your damage, so they deliver the best returns.

 

Diogo

Simply put, it is better to have a lot of haste, a lot of crit and a lot of attack power than it is to have less of those in order to accomodate more hit rating.

 

dukes

a) You prove your point before you start stating things. Even if that's two WWS parses of you doing more damage with hit cap than without, it's SOME kind of evidence.
b) c) d) You're level 63. I understand you want to know about the mechanics before you get to a raid situation, but wtf?
e) If you still don't get it after this many people telling you and your only response being "I don't think being un-hitcapped is really a good thing", then you need to think about this more.

 

Storming

le sigh. i never proposed gimping strength for the purpose of hit either.

but, ok. its good to be able to discuss things freely here without the usual 'lulz zomg wtfbbq!#$' nonsense of the wow forums.

 

Leonina

Or he should roll a rogue and hitcap that with combatspec

 

Shiyo

Getting hitcapped would gimp your other stats. Proposing getting hitcapped is the same as proposing gimping strength for the purpose of hit.

 

• Scheme

/cast Stormstrike
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

It's not that complicated.

 

◊ Penguin

Yes you did. In order to reach the hit cap, you are going to have to equip gear that ignores str, ap or crit in favour of more hit in the budget. Even if you gem for it, those are sill gems that could be crit. You can't just say "add more hit", because it comes at a cost of stats that will produce better dps.

There's not some hidden "but he tries really hard" variable built into the game. -Slake

I always love the "it doesn't fit my style of play" line. There are only two styles of play; Correct, and Incorrect. The only people that ever use this line are people with the incorrect style of play. -Sebudai

 

Toots Hepcat

If we lived in a world where one could be hitcapped without sacrificing any other stat -- well then yes, it'd be worthwhile.

But consider: you have a yellow slot. You can get +8 Crit Rating gems, or +8 Hit Rating gems. The Crit Rating gem would increase your chance to crit by .36%, the hit rating gem would increase your chance to hit by .5%.

However, depending on your spec & cycle, crit applies to 80 to 90% of your damage. Above that first 9%, hit only applies to at best 50% of your damage. This makes the crit gem at worst a .288% increase to total DPS, while the hit rating gem is at best a .25% increase.

So, provided that you are not crit capped, a crit gem is always better than a hit gem. And a +8 strength gem is even better. This is true well into BT.

The itemization on gear makes a similar trade off to 1 STR = 1 CR = 1 HitR. Thus, if you hit cap, you're sacrificing potential STR and CR gear to do so. Because both those stats offer more gains than HitR, you will necessarily do worse DPS than a shaman who had more balanced gear with the same item level.

Hit rating doesn't suck; you're bound to wind up with some of it because there are no pieces of armor with, say, +100 STR and that's it. I've found a lot of upgrades that dropped some STR/AP and Crit/Agi for a large amount of HitR. But if you cap, you will suck compared to others at your level who didn't cap.

 

Rhaegal

To elaborate on what Penguin said...

Yes, you absolutely are proposing gimping strength and crit for hit. You can't magically add hit onto a piece of gear without either (a) increasing its ilvl (and thus the location of the drop, making it inaccessible at the level of the original item), or (b) removing other stats.

Gems are an excellent example, where gemming for hit means that you're not gemming for strength, but the same logic applies when Blizzard assigns stats to gear. They can either put hit on something, or they can add to another stat on it. Therefore, you can't isolate hit into its own discussion, you can only talk about it in terms of how it weights in relation to our other key stats.

Certain other classes want to be hit capped because hit, up to the point where they are capped, affects their DPS more than any other stat. Not because there's some all-important plateau of DPS that you can only reach if you never miss. The hit cap for them is simply the point where the stat is no longer worth anything. For us, it's never (unless you're Enh/Elem instead of Enh/Resto) the case that hit is worth that much. It's that simple.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

rava

Wow, I'm dumb. I did not even think to go that simple.

Full price for gum!? That dog won't hunt, Monsignor.

 

Gehenna

As of now, there isn't a viable "conditional" for integrating purge into another hotkey. The best way to go about it is to have purge be the opening line on a macro that does something non-related to purge, such as mount.

For example, i use this:

#show Tawny Windrider
/stopcast
/cast [harm] Purge; [target=targettarget, harm] Purge
/userandom [nobutton:2, flyable, nomounted] Tawny Windrider; [nomounted] Horn of the Swift Brown Wolf, Horn of the Frostwolf Howler
/dismount
END

If someone knows another method, I'd love to know myself. I've been owrking to find a hotkey that i can make that purges when the target can be purged, and if not, use my cast sequence.

On another note, in the explanation about expertise on the front page, one sentence could perhaps be edited for clarity:

"To get around this, you first need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 3.95, take the floor, and multiply by 3.95 again."

I just think "round down to the nearest whole integer" would be better than "take the floor" for those not not savvy with math jargon like this. Maybe I'm wrong, just a suggestion.

 

Sebudai

The justification for not being hit capped is this; If you select your gear based on which items will result in you dealing the most damage possible, you won't be hit capped. I attack 20 times and 10 of my attacks hit for 1100 damage each. You attack 20 times and they all hit for 500 damage each. Congratulations, you're hit capped. Too bad you're doing less damage than I am in this theoretical scenario. There is no special prize for being hit capped. Explain to us why never missing is necessary or even optimal based off of our current options gear-wise.

1 point of hit rating just plain provides a smaller damage increase than 1 point of crit rating. Why? I don't know. Ask Blizzard.

Hit rating isn't really a "lesser" stat. It does actually surpass stats like agility and haste rating in many situations. I've actually had hit rating get really close(.1 EP) to the value of crit rating based off of my own use of the simulator. I've never had it actually surpass crit though.

In short, hit rating is slightly less valuable than stats like strength, attack power, crit rating and expertise because math says it is. Math is a badass, so I wouldn't insult it if I were you.

 

• Binkenstein

Math for the new trinket!

I'm going to work on putting together a decent framework for looking at proc based trinkets. Also: full credit for the original equation to whoever it was that made it (can't remember names right now).

 

Cuddly

While we are on the subject of hit rating, are we valuing the increased windfury procs due to not missing an attack that would proc it?

 

Rhaegal

Should that formula take into account that Flurry makes a 2.6 speed weapon effectively 1.82? Plugging numbers back in, I get:

230*(20/(0.1*1.100+45)) = 102.0 AP

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

Rhaegal

I hope you're kidding.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

Mbuzi

I think (hope) I can solve this confusion. If the point of a raid was to make sure every attack hit, you'd be correct. However, the generally accepted principle is to maximize sustained DPS. The AEP system proposed here that values hit less than some stats is designed to maximize sustained dps, not to maximize # of attacks that hit. The reason casters (generally) cap their hit is because maxing spell hit is how a caster maximizes DPS.

 

Ardonomus

Am I misunderstanding or misreading something here, or is there a typo in there?

First you say it's *0.1)+45, and in the edit you type /.1+45. Shouldn't it be 230*(20/(0.769*.1+45)) -> 230*(20/45.0769) -> ~102,05EP, or do I lack some understanding here?

And if it is indeed just a typo, which one is correct?

 

Solomir

Can anyone explain to me why on maxdps.com, the 'EP' value of haste is so inflated? I'm thinking it's due to the modelling of WF to not include a 3s cooldown, but I'm not totally sure.

I was also thinking that with all the haste gear coming out in 2.4 we can do some tests to see if the 1.4-1.5 haste valley really exists. Looking at all the available passive haste gear so far available, we can get 444 haste rating/28.17% haste. We can probably run tests using a set of [Sun-forged Cleaver] to model the effect of adding/removing haste.

[edit] actually, all that haste is only enough to bring 2.6 down to 1.54 with 100% flurry. Seems we need just a little bit more haste (which is probably in the rest of the sunwell gear)

 

Grogimer

Solomir, As stated in the original post it was already disproved.