Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 285

Solomir · 02/14/08, 7:55 PM

I believe the point disproving the haste valley was made in the context of the fact that you'd only be seeing speeds in that region when procs/BLust was active, and not passively over the course of a 5+ minute fight. If you were supposedly sitting at a 1.54 speed when flurried, and then another haste item dropped, could it actually lead to a drop in dps due to dropping below 1.5 speed? Obviously, no one at the moment would actually consider pursuing a full haste set (it requires the BT haste gear and the ZA cloak), but as item levels inflate, it is possible at some time that hitting that kind of passive haste is possible for top end gear, unless they rework how windfury works.

Pitbuller · 02/14/08, 7:59 PM

Test haste valley with Yo's sim.

flurry off.
mongooses off.
Edit: haste pots off.
weapon speed 1.51

passive haste 0%
test run 1#
851dps.

passive haste 1%
test run 2#
809dps.

EDIT: Damn forget to take off haste pots. I tested with 1.51 too but 30passive haste was too much to ruin all results.

• Binkenstein · 02/14/08, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by Ardonomus

Am I misunderstanding or misreading something here, or is there a typo in there?

First you say it's *0.1)+45, and in the edit you type /.1+45. Shouldn't it be 230*(20/(0.769*.1+45)) -> 230*(20/45.0769) -> ~102,05EP, or do I lack some understanding here?

And if it is indeed just a typo, which one is correct?

No, using Excel math, multiplication & division are calculated before addition/subtraction, but to make it simple, /769*0.1)+45 is what it should read.

Revised formula (not tested) is $TPC(A + B) + \frac{TP}{D}\$ where T = duration, P = proc bonus, C = Proc chance, A/B = weapon speed A & B, D = cooldown

• Disquette · 02/14/08, 8:25 PM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

Test haste valley with Yo's sim.
flurry off.
mongooses off.
weapon speed 1.50

passive haste 0%
test run 1#
820dps.

passive haste 1%
test run 2#
824dps.

To be fair, it's pretty easy to find the converse as well, provided you're geared for yellow damage more than white damage. For example, using the following two scenarios, only differentiated by run1: 0% haste, run2: 5% haste...

2500 AP
30% crit
15% hit
1.6 speed MH, 1.6 speed OH
MH DPS: 97.5, OH DPS: 93.7
MH/OH expertise: 8
flurry off, crusader/crusader

0% haste: 1167 dps
5% haste: 1118 dps

The valley certainly can exist, but I don't know how often a person would hit it using real life gear and talents.

I think you get what you saw because of how yo! handles 1.5 speed (greater than versus greater-than/equal to). If you run your same test using 1.55 as the default weapon speed instead of 1.5, you'll see a rather enormous dps loss from 1% haste.

Illundai · 02/14/08, 11:11 PM

Tier 6 Shaman Bracers were changed, 64 ap converted to 32 str, 22 agi converted to 22 hit rating.

Jarlaxle · 02/15/08, 2:37 AM

Okay so....

Over the past couple of days I have accumulated various pieces with armor ignore on it.

I've gotten Dory's Embrace 112 armor ignore, Vindicator's Badn of Triumph 56 armor ignore, and Bladeangel's Money Belt 77 armor ignore.

Is this enough of armor ignore to make Executioner on the MH worth it? Or do I still need to stack more?

frozndevl · 02/15/08, 2:42 AM

Originally Posted by Jarlaxle

Okay so....

Over the past couple of days I have accumulated various pieces with armor ignore on it.

I've gotten Dory's Embrace 112 armor ignore, Vindicator's Badn of Triumph 56 armor ignore, and Bladeangel's Money Belt 77 armor ignore.

Is this enough of armor ignore to make Executioner on the MH worth it? Or do I still need to stack more?

Use Yo!'s sim, should be pretty easy to run it once with mongoose on one hand and again with executioner.

Jarlaxle · 02/15/08, 2:47 AM

Okay - I just freshly built my computer. I been hesitant to install random crap on it that i dont usualy use (java)

Ardonomus · 02/15/08, 3:32 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

No, using Excel math, multiplication & division are calculated before addition/subtraction, but to make it simple, /769*0.1)+45 is what it should read.

Revised formula (not tested) is $TPC(A + B) + \frac{TP}{D}\$ where T = duration, P = proc bonus, C = Proc chance, A/B = weapon speed A & B, D = cooldown

Yes I'm well aware that multiplication and division are calculated before addition and subtraction, however my point was that in the original post you write .769 multiplied by 0.1, and later .769 divided by 0.1. The parenthesis (spelling?) was not what I was picking on

But if the *0.1 is correct compared to /0.1, then you get a slight difference of ~15EP in your formula due to the difference in the "chance" calculation you first posted, if I understand it correctly

Tristan · 02/15/08, 5:52 AM

Originally Posted by Rhagok

I don´t find it just now, but someone posted a Macro here which would be really interessting in Enhancement PvP it was something along the lines of

/castrandom Stormstrike, Purge(Rank2)

Now how does this work? Does it really choose randomly between those two spells and if so is there the chance that it does Purge instead of SS when CD is up? Because that would be really bad.

Is it possible to macro something that will SS anytime it is up and otherwise spam Purge on the target?

Besides the /stopcasting macro you got previously in this thread there is always:

/castsequence reset=10 Stormstrike, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge

Doora · 02/15/08, 7:00 AM

Originally Posted by Tristan

/castsequence reset=10 Stormstrike, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge

this will not reset every 10 seconds if spam clicked, and 8 purges are 12seconds global cd.

I would use:

/castsequence reset=shift Stormstrike, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge

this way you can reset the macro shift clicking it and it will reset to SS afte 6 Purges (6 *1.5 =9seconds).

I'm not sure if a Purge that receive a "nothing to dispell" error will still count as spell used in the castsequence, but I guess it does.

Khlysti · 02/15/08, 7:11 AM

Originally Posted by Disquette

To be fair, it's pretty easy to find the converse as well, provided you're geared for yellow damage more than white damage. For example, using the following two scenarios, only differentiated by run1: 0% haste, run2: 5% haste...

2500 AP
30% crit
15% hit
1.6 speed MH, 1.6 speed OH
MH DPS: 97.5, OH DPS: 93.7
MH/OH expertise: 8
flurry off, crusader/crusader

0% haste: 1167 dps
5% haste: 1118 dps

The valley certainly can exist, but I don't know how often a person would hit it using real life gear and talents.

This was entirely the point of the disproving.

With no flurry or other proc style haste effects its a fairly simple math proof to show small amounts of haste that take you from >1.5 speed to <1.5 speed will lead to a small dps loss, however this is not (in all tests in game and sim runs I have done) reproducable in a 'real world' situation. Simply adding in flurry is enough that flurried speed going from above to below 1.5 is a dps increase (it is however a much smaller increase than adding the same amount of haste and not crossing that line). Once the use of haste pots, heroism/lust, drums and mongoose are added in (even more so if you use DST or dragonstrike) there is no single speed value you are at for long enough that going over the 1.5 line for that value will result in a decrease in overall dps.

The general point is, in a raid situation haste will provide a dps increase no matter what your current hasted weapon speed, but the haste item that takes you over the 1.5 point when flurried *may* have a slightly lower dps boost than it otherwise would if you don't use many proc / short term use haste effects.

• Disquette · 02/15/08, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Khlysti

This was entirely the point of the disproving.

With no flurry or other proc style haste effects its a fairly simple math proof to show small amounts of haste that take you from >1.5 speed to <1.5 speed will lead to a small dps loss, however this is not (in all tests in game and sim runs I have done) reproducable in a 'real world' situation.

etc...

Of course. I was simply responding to someone who seemed to believe that the dps valley wasn't reproducable in a sim. They gave an example, I gave a counter example and explained why the test they ran didn't act the way we'd probably expect it to.

No new thoughts or anything like that, just making sure that Pitbuller understands how that particular aspect of Yo's sim acts.

Tuili · 02/15/08, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Scheme

/cast Stormstrike
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

It's not that complicated.

Well if you dislike error messages it is... Try:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast Stormstrike
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

This way during the CD there will be no "Ability not ready" but you will still get the "Nothing to dispell" message, which has more relevance imo. If you want to hide that too (maybe you use an addon that tells you what was purged, and seeing that nothing was is enough for you) Just move the last two lines to within the UIErrors confine.

Ezeckial · 02/15/08, 11:09 AM

I've been pondering the possible dps viability of dual Deathfrost in PvE. I haven't seen anything about it's proc rate or the impacts of Dual Wielding on said proc rate.

Deathfrost Tooltip

Permanently enchant a weapon so your damaging spells and melee hits occasionally inflict an additional 150 Frost damage and reduce the target's melee, ranged, and casting speed by 15% for 4 sec.

Dual Wielding the enchant may double the proc rate on your shocks. Also due to the wording on the enchant it may double the proc rate on each of your melee hits. Most enchants say that the weapon has a chance to proc the effect. (I'm thinking misplaced servo arm mechanics, I remember getting a 2nd one was supposed to be a huge buff to dps)

Without numbers and knowing how having 2 weapons enchanted effects the proc rate on spells and melee hits it's all just conjecture. However I'd be interested in seeing how the numbers work out.

Jabor · 02/15/08, 11:50 AM

Hello there, i have a question which i can't seem to find an answer to anywhere in your posts or in any of the reply'.
The other day i had the Coif of the jungle stalker drop from Hex lord, i am running around with my good old Cyclone helm and i was wondering what the rating of a meta socket should be, as in how i am to know if an item with a meta socket is better than one without even tho the item without has superior stats, i know that the meta socket will yield ~1 % dps increase, but i cant do the math, i hope you guys can help me.

Malan · 02/15/08, 11:57 AM

We noted several pages back that Deathfrost is highly unlikely to stack with Thunderclap/CoT or even work on raid bosses.

it's all just conjecture

Yes that's pretty much all it is at this point so let's move on for now.

Ezeckial · 02/15/08, 12:03 PM

The deathfrost slowing effect is unlikely to work on raid bosses that's for sure. Even then Imp. T-clap is better and it would probably override.

I was considering it from a pure dps standpoint. Even if it's immune to the slowing effect, mobs will not be immune to the 150 frost damage. I'm just wondering if it would be like a super fiery. That also effects shocks.

But all this really depends as I said on proc rate and how having it on 2 weapons works.

Exocutioner/Mongoose or Mongoose/Mongoose will probably be better, but seeing some numbers still interests me. I just hadn't seen it looked at from this point of view yet, and don't have access to any numbers to present. So I was wondering if anyone else did.

rava · 02/15/08, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by Jabor

Hello there, i have a question which i can't seem to find an answer to anywhere in your posts or in any of the reply'.
The other day i had the Coif of the jungle stalker drop from Hex lord, i am running around with my good old Cyclone helm and i was wondering what the rating of a meta socket should be, as in how i am to know if an item with a meta socket is better than one without even tho the item without has superior stats, i know that the meta socket will yield ~1 % dps increase, but i cant do the math, i hope you guys can help me.

You're joking, right? This exact question has been brought up multiple times, "Search this thread" = your bff.

As far as Deathfrost, I plan on putting it on two gutgores just to spit in warlocks' faces.

• Shinanigans · 02/15/08, 2:50 PM

Alright, while reading through all of this "haste rating" talk, I get utterly confused.

I just got my first piece of Haste Rating gear last night -- [Grips of Damnation].

Quote from original post:

"Haste Rating will directly increase the contribution of white swings to your DPS - 1% Haste will generate 1% more auto attack DPS."

How much Haste Rating makes 1% haste? I am sure this has been answered elsewhere. I am just not finding it.

Malan · 02/15/08, 3:07 PM

WowWiki.com and even the WoWhead link of the item in question would answer that question for you.

• Shinanigans · 02/15/08, 3:27 PM

Alright, so the data for you lazy people.

Directly from WoWWiki:

"Every 15.7 Points of Haste rating you will have 1% more Attack Speed."

Jabor · 02/15/08, 5:11 PM

@rava, sorry for missing it, theres like 300 pages, i searched around 100 of em.

Rhaegal · 02/15/08, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Jabor

@rava, sorry for missing it, theres like 300 pages, i searched around 100 of em.

If you use the "Search this thread" tool, you search every page at once!

Knar · 02/15/08, 5:51 PM

Hi i'm new to EJ, but I have been a long time reader/worshipper of this thread. Im an enhance shammy in SSC/TK and my guild has currently cleared everything up to Kael'thas. using the itemization part of the post i made a list of the best gear I believe I can get before entering tier 6 content (from SSC, TK, Badges, and ZA). here is a link to it: 70 Draenei Shaman

I'm just curious if I have done all the right calculations and if there's any better gear I can get before I hit BT/Hyjal.

sorry if somebody has already mentioned, and thanks for taking the time to read this

EDIT: I forgot to mention i didnt included crafted weapons/armor because im not a LW or blacksmith.