Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 287

Macar · 02/17/08, 3:52 AM

Originally Posted by Lujaar

Looking through the new ptr loot, Shard of Contempt from the new heroic is stupidly good. I'm getting a bit over 130 AEP for the passive alone. Even assuming an ass-terrible proc rate of 0.5 ppm after specials, that's about 170 AEP total. Better than Dragonspine, and by extension every other trinket in WoW. Hopefully we'll see some data on the proc rate soon.

Speaking of expertise and loot, I can't make up my mind on Rising Tide vs the new badge fist for an orc. 1% crit and 3 weapon DPS vs 5 expertise and .1 speed. The deal-breakers seem to be whether the expertise applies to the offhand even if it's not an axe, and whether that graph Yo did holds up in actual gameplay (staggered weapon speeds > identical weapon speeds, so 2.5/2.6 > 2.6/2.6). WTB Fist to Axe Transmute so I don't have to figure this out.

A good idea would be to use Yo!'s simulator for this...

Leonina · 02/17/08, 6:09 AM

Lujaar: uhm, the trinket is already been discussed here, it's very high procrate, 45sec. internal cooldown. the AEP comes out at over 200.

falonub · 02/17/08, 7:16 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

"nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration" is the key there.

But yah I've had 3 people now tell me that part is badly worded. Suggestions?

For entry raid enhancement shaman there will most likely be more gain from using double Mongoose; in order to make up for potential low crit rating if need be. In addition to potentially making up for lower crit rating, to have Mongoose/Executioner be viable you'd need an amount of ignore armor that is almost unobtainable to an enhancement shaman in the early stages of raiding. As you progress through endgame content more ignore armor gear will become available without sacrificing other stats to obtain it. At the this point Mongoose/Executioner becomes at least as viable, if not more so than double mongoose depending on how much ignore armor you have access to.

That's what I came up with D:

Amagnus · 02/17/08, 7:39 AM

I'm still trying to understand how to compare two similar pieces of gear. I completely understand EP but wonder what other factors are important when EP between two pieces is close (and in fact what close means in that respect). Here are two pieces of gear I have:

[The Master's Treads]

This item has about 111 EP. In addition, 191 Armor (Leather) along with +19 Stamina.

[Boots of the Endless Hunt]

This item has slightly less EP than the 1st at around 93. However, it's a mail item with 535 Armor. Stamina is the same as the 1st at +19 with +23 Intellect and 6 MP5.

So, [The Master's Treads] has more EP but overall is it a superior piece of gear? I don't have mana issues too often but it seems like the additional armor has some benefit when I'm a bit squishy at this point.

In sum, should one always base gear selection factors on EP or are there times when other factors (like armor, intellect, MP5, etc.) should be considered when EP is close. Obviously if two pieces of gear have the same EP these additional factors would make one piece superior. How big of a difference in EP is necessary before one would pass up these additional features?

Thanks.

◊ Wraithlin · 02/17/08, 7:45 AM

Do you die alot ?
If the answer is yes, the stamina will help you.
If the answer is no the stamina has 0 net worth.

Neithan · 02/17/08, 7:47 AM

I was thinking of taking the T6 boots/belt/wrists (stupid vashj refusing to drop the belt), which T6 would you suggest to get to get 4pc set bonus? Seems like Shoulders so far, am I right?

falonub · 02/17/08, 8:14 AM

Originally Posted by Neithan

I was thinking of taking the T6 boots/belt/wrists (stupid vashj refusing to drop the belt), which T6 would you suggest to get to get 4pc set bonus? Seems like Shoulders so far, am I right?

yeah on page 276 Myul did a very nice AEP evaluation for all the pieces, and shoulders + the 70 AP bonus they give would yield 2 less AEP I believe it was, so they're looking like the best to wear to pick up the 4pc. The post can be found here: http://elitistjerks.com/633050-post6916.html

sidenote:

[Band of Ruinous Delight] dropped for Vis Maior off the eredar twins a few hours ago.
Band of Ruinous Delight - Items - WOWDB

Very Similar stats to the Illidan ring; with crit rating instead of hit rating

Using imported "High Settings" on enhancer on PTR, I got ~178.AEP from the ring. Illidan ring being ~156, and the new JC ring being ~172

LazyJoe · 02/17/08, 8:32 AM

Originally Posted by Amagnus

I'm still trying to understand how to compare two similar pieces of gear. I completely understand EP but wonder what other factors are important when EP between two pieces is close (and in fact what close means in that respect). Here are two pieces of gear I have:

[The Master's Treads]

This item has about 111 EP. In addition, 191 Armor (Leather) along with +19 Stamina.

[Boots of the Endless Hunt]

This item has slightly less EP than the 1st at around 93. However, it's a mail item with 535 Armor. Stamina is the same as the 1st at +19 with +23 Intellect and 6 MP5.

So, [The Master's Treads] has more EP but overall is it a superior piece of gear? I don't have mana issues too often but it seems like the additional armor has some benefit when I'm a bit squishy at this point.

In sum, should one always base gear selection factors on EP or are there times when other factors (like armor, intellect, MP5, etc.) should be considered when EP is close. Obviously if two pieces of gear have the same EP these additional factors would make one piece superior. How big of a difference in EP is necessary before one would pass up these additional features?

Thanks.

Between 93 EP and 111 EP you have a ~20% difference that's what i would not call "slightly less", in fact it's a pretty huge difference (20% more EP is an entire tier difference, just compare T4 and T5 helms).

If you have a very small difference (like <5%) between two item's EP then you can take into account 'comfort' stats like stamina or intel. As for mp5 since the recent changes to water shield it is now more worthless than ever. And if you pull aggro a few armor is not gonna save you (except maybe on karazhan trash), if you want increased survability dodge (and therefore agility) is a better life saver (I recently 'tanked' void reaver for the last 3% without dying thanks to my high dodge rate, a single hit would have totaly killed me even with tons of hp and full mail gear).

Aksing · 02/17/08, 1:33 PM

Hey guys, i've been playing WoW for 2.5 years now and have spent 2.2 of those years playing a rogue in end game raiding. Combat Swords was my bread and butter. But a few months ago i decided to reroll enhancement shaman.

I was sick of not having one in the melee group. So i did some research, and ofc used this thread to get info

I am happy to say i'm loving it, and now that my gear has pretty much caught up to the rest of the guilds my own personal damage has gone up alot, and the melee dps overall in the raid is stunning.

So i guess thanks for converting me to enhancement :p And you'll be seeing aot more of me, as i was always a bit of a forum whore on my rogue, and seeing as this looks like THE place to discuss enhancement shaman stuff, i'll be an avid reader / contributor from now on.

My plans as far as Sunwell go are pretty much the same as most of you.

Belt, Bracers Boots & Shoulders of T6 then the leather stuff. Really is sick gear. And finally some enhancement weapons. Shame they're fists again. Would like to see some axes.

Amagnus · 02/17/08, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by LazyJoe

Between 93 EP and 111 EP you have a ~20% difference that's what i would not call "slightly less", in fact it's a pretty huge difference (20% more EP is an entire tier difference, just compare T4 and T5 helms).

If you have a very small difference (like <5%) between two item's EP then you can take into account 'comfort' stats like stamina or intel. As for mp5 since the recent changes to water shield it is now more worthless than ever. And if you pull aggro a few armor is not gonna save you (except maybe on karazhan trash), if you want increased survability dodge (and therefore agility) is a better life saver (I recently 'tanked' void reaver for the last 3% without dying thanks to my high dodge rate, a single hit would have totaly killed me even with tons of hp and full mail gear).

Thanks for your response. I ran Yo's simulator with the two boots and there was in fact a negligible difference in DPS. 658 with [Boots of the Endless Hunt] versus 661 with [The Master's Treads]. My suspicion based on the OP is that since most of the EP increase of [The Master's Treads] comes from hit rating, and my hit rating is already pretty high without the boots (166) that in this circumstance the extra EP doesn't translate into additional DPS. Thus, the other stats probably make it worthwhile.

Yo's simulator was definitely helpful and re-reading the hit rating portion of the OP helped to make more sense.

Thanks

rava · 02/17/08, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by Aksing

Hey guys, i've been playing WoW for 2.5 years now and have spent 2.2 of those years playing a rogue in end game raiding. Combat Swords was my bread and butter. But a few months ago i decided to reroll enhancement shaman.

I was sick of not having one in the melee group. So i did some research, and ofc used this thread to get info

I am happy to say i'm loving it, and now that my gear has pretty much caught up to the rest of the guilds my own personal damage has gone up alot, and the melee dps overall in the raid is stunning.

So i guess thanks for converting me to enhancement :p And you'll be seeing aot more of me, as i was always a bit of a forum whore on my rogue, and seeing as this looks like THE place to discuss enhancement shaman stuff, i'll be an avid reader / contributor from now on.

My plans as far as Sunwell go are pretty much the same as most of you.

Belt, Bracers Boots & Shoulders of T6 then the leather stuff. Really is sick gear. And finally some enhancement weapons. Shame they're fists again. Would like to see some axes.

I don't understand why everyone is jumping at the 3 new/1 old thing. Going off of the list Myul made it's a 6ep gain going from Shadowmaster's to T6 and a 4ep loss going from Vashj belt to T6. The only piece that's really an "upgrade" is the bracers where you gain ~13, and even then there are a billion other things from the zone to pick up. Off the top of my head: LW BP, Mounting Vengeance, JC ring, and LW Gloves- 4 things that can drop from the first trash mob in the zone.

Do you really want to bog yourself down with 3 more items on top of that? -4(belt)+13(bracers)-14(shoulders)+6(boots)+68(69) vs -13(bracers)+58(shoulders)+4(belt)-6(boots)(43), is 26 ep worth 3 item slots when you can pick up 1 and be a mere 26ep behind? Almost every other slot is 50-100 ep better and unless you plan on picking up the entire zone uncontested. Use some common sense and see where your bigger upgrades are before you commit to 3 slots for 26 ep.

Stopokingme · 02/17/08, 4:57 PM

Well, they're also from the first 3 bosses in Sunwell, which will be farmed quite a bit before the final gate opens. At 3 tokens each boss it won't be that long before they become cheap, barring extremely crappy drop luck. Oh and minor nitpick, you forgot the bit less then 70 ep from the 4 set bonus.

frozndevl · 02/17/08, 5:41 PM

Originally Posted by Amagnus

Thanks for your response. I ran Yo's simulator with the two boots and there was in fact a negligible difference in DPS. 658 with [Boots of the Endless Hunt] versus 661 with [The Master's Treads]. My suspicion based on the OP is that since most of the EP increase of [The Master's Treads] comes from hit rating, and my hit rating is already pretty high without the boots (166) that in this circumstance the extra EP doesn't translate into additional DPS. Thus, the other stats probably make it worthwhile.

Yo's simulator was definitely helpful and re-reading the hit rating portion of the OP helped to make more sense.

Thanks

You have to remember that EP != DPS. If I was reading things right, the difference in EP was about 18 and I bet that the DPS value in Yo!'s sim is something around .2 - .25.

18 * .25 = 4.5 which is about the difference in the DPS you observed. This looks about right to me.

Aratheon · 02/17/08, 7:34 PM

Hey guys.

I have a question about Armor Penetration: Do you have any information about wether or not the buff from [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Executioner] do stack?
I've heard a rumor that Armor Penetration selfbuffs do not stack but cannot find any post, that would confirm this.

falonub · 02/17/08, 9:36 PM

Originally Posted by Aratheon

Hey guys.

I have a question about Armor Penetration: Do you have any information about wether or not the buff from [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Executioner] do stack?
I've heard a rumor that Armor Penetration selfbuffs do not stack but cannot find any post, that would confirm this.

Yes; I use both and both procs can occur at the same time.

edit after gehenna's post, yeah I took it at face value assuming both buffs up meaning both stack, but I'd assume so, and I hope so D:

Gehenna · 02/17/08, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by falonub

Yes; I use both and both procs can occur at the same time.

That isn't exactly an answer to his question. My nature totem stacks with hunter NR Buff, but the effects do not stack.

In addition, i heard similar rumors, but about mongoose. I've been told mongoose haste does not stack with haste from passive abilities, but I've only heard this from one person.

◊ Rob · 02/17/08, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by rava

I don't understand why everyone is jumping at the 3 new/1 old thing. Going off of the list Myul made it's a 6ep gain going from Shadowmaster's to T6 and a 4ep loss going from Vashj belt to T6.

The assumption is that it's going to be easier to get tokens than specific nonset drops, since each T6 and Sunwell boss will drop 3 set tokens/kill in 2.4.

Neithan · 02/18/08, 2:21 AM

Originally Posted by Rob

The assumption is that it's going to be easier to get tokens than specific nonset drops, since each T6 and Sunwell boss will drop 3 set tokens/kill in 2.4.

Correct. It would be easier to get (as our rogues stated, that they are going for new items as well), plus its just theorycraft as we did not see any new boots/bracers/belt from SWP so far.

Snowcold · 02/18/08, 4:14 AM

Hello there,
im a bit new to this forum and recently fell in love with enhancement shaman ( thanks to this post partly)

Just started to gear up and im Currently using [Malchazeen] as a offhand and [Fool's Bane] as a main hand. With this nice AV weekend got enough honor to buy a new main hand/offhand and i was hesitating between the gladiator S1 [Gladiator's Pummeler] / [Gladiator's Cleaver] or on the other hand [Gladiator's Right Ripper]you'll notice a slight difference between them since the fist weapon has a higher+ max damage but a lower min damage then the others but can only be used in main hand

h4rr0d · 02/18/08, 4:36 AM

Originally Posted by Aratheon

Hey guys.

I have a question about Armor Penetration: Do you have any information about wether or not the buff from [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Executioner] do stack?
I've heard a rumor that Armor Penetration selfbuffs do not stack but cannot find any post, that would confirm this.

That rumor is probably based on fact that Executioner does not stack. Its stupid that APen is does not show anywhere, but i don't see any reason why it shouldn't stack if the items can proc together.

Originally Posted by Gehenna

That isn't exactly an answer to his question. My nature totem stacks with hunter NR Buff, but the effects do not stack.

In addition, i heard similar rumors, but about mongoose. I've been told mongoose haste does not stack with haste from passive abilities, but I've only heard this from one person.

Haste effect on the contrary can be tracked on paperdoll, and having ~100 haste myself, I can assure you that haste from mongoose does stack with passive haste (at least weapon speed changes on paperdoll...)

Asirae · 02/18/08, 5:02 AM

Originally Posted by Snowcold

Hello there,
im a bit new to this forum and recently fell in love with enhancement shaman ( thanks to this post partly)

Just started to gear up and im Currently using [Malchazeen] as a offhand and [Fool's Bane] as a main hand. With this nice AV weekend got enough honor to buy a new main hand/offhand and i was hesitating between the gladiator S1 [Gladiator's Pummeler] / [Gladiator's Cleaver] or on the other hand [Gladiator's Right Ripper]you'll notice a slight difference between them since the fist weapon has a higher+ max damage but a lower min damage then the others but can only be used in main hand

Isn't that dagger just a little too fast? Try calculating the EP value of each.

off-hand: [Malchazeen]

I'm trying to compile a list of 'best' enhancement shaman weapons, but it is a work in progress: Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman

I'd love to see a veteran EJ forum member here list weapons so I can compare and tweak my list.

◊ Wraithlin · 02/18/08, 5:21 AM

Originally Posted by Snowcold

Hello there,
im a bit new to this forum and recently fell in love with enhancement shaman ( thanks to this post partly)

And yet you clearly have not even read this post or you wouldnt be using that horrible horrible off hand.

Snowcold · 02/18/08, 5:28 AM

Tbh i have read the post, i just happened to have respec 2 days ago and didin't have much of a choice weapon wyse...

EDIT* took the ripper seems better according to your website thanks again for the help.

• Raut · 02/18/08, 5:35 AM

This doesn't matter. And the OP clearly states that you should run the sim to find this out for yourself.

Maybe the OP should have a "myth buster" section where these types of things is discarded?

Illundai · 02/18/08, 6:34 AM

Honestly, it doesn't matter if it were in the OP or not. People will still ask these stupid questions =P.