Rhagok

Isn´t the simplest answer to this that the itemdesign is the solution to this?

I see at the moment, as I´m discussing some of my gear choices with a fury warrior friend of mine, that some gear is simply the best ingame period. There are very few items that are so close to each other that EP values can make a difference there. For example Deadly Cuffs vs. Insidious Bands. There it is important how you weigh things to see which one is best. But you simply can´t have values that will make any head better then CVoS or Midnight Chestguard.

Some simple math Nethershadow Tunic vs. Midnight Chestguard. You gain 36 Agi and 6Hit vs 46 Crit and 20 AP
Given the fact that Agi will never outperform Crit and just for the sake of Math we will set Agi = Crit you have 6 Hit <-> 10 crit 20 AP

Now only if Hit had a value > 6 !!!!! will the Nethershadow Tunic outperform the Midnight Chest.
The regions in which our EP values for stats change are about .2 to .3 maybe?
So there is simply no way that this will have an impact on TOP END gear whatsoever (except some special cases like the bracers maybe)
However I think that EP are still a nice way for an Enhancer to gear up and make the right choices on the way to receiving those CVoS and Midnight Chestguards!

Originaly posted by Sebudai

 

Toots Hepcat

Well, the two most variable stats, in my experience, are hit rating and crit rating/agi. Changes in these two seem to dramatically mix up what gear is best at a given level. (Makes sense -- armor pen, haste, strength, weapon dps, etc are almost always great).

Look at the gear for max iLvl 141 as I adjust these two stats to the T5 and T6 levels (all else the same):
Agi 1.8 CrR 2 HitR 1.4
Agi 1.69 CrR 1.74 HitR 1.69

Both the rankings and the best-in-class selections are pretty different. Yeah, you see a lot of the same gear in each -- but if you're a holder of one of those pieces, looking for an easy upgrade, accuracy of stat weights is important.

For example, I am considering whether it's worth more to farm badges for [Dory's Embrace] or farm gold & primals to get a tailor to make me a [Vengeance Wrap]. Depending on my stats, the one may be better than the other by 20 EP.

Course, once you add in Illidan gear, your top option is always the same.

 

Pitbuller

Expertice value for each hand from Yo's sim.
2 *2.6 100dps weapons on both hands.

0 expertice: 1152dps(base value)
100 expertice for both hands: 1223dps(71dps gain)
100 expertice only for mh: 1204 dps(52dps gain = 0.73 = 73%)
100 expertice only for hh: 1173 dps(19dps gain = 0.27 = 27%)

Now if you wait for max. 3s if WF is cd.
0 expertice: 1169dps(base value)
100 expertice for both hands: 1239dps(70dps gain)
100 expertice only for mh: 1222 dps(53dps gain = 0.76 = 76%)
100 expertice only for hh: 1186 dps(187ps gain = 0.24 = 24%)


Stormstrike mechanic will boost mh expertice value and inflate oh expertice value.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

◊ Rob

Not coincidentally, 76% and 24% are approximately equivalent to the relative ratios of the weapon DPS EP values we figured out a while back. (9.03+2.70 = 11.73, 9.03/11.73 = 77%) Anyway, those numbers should be more accurate than the 66/33 ratio and they also show that a strategy of using a non-axe offhand to get more MH WF procs is not beneficial.

 

• Binkenstein

So if you use low/mid/high EP values, you get a similar breakdown over all/t5/t4 gear?

I tend to notice a similar thing for elemental gear, excepting when I start using my mana adjustment values.

 

Malan

But they really aren't that different. In each slot maybe 1-2 items are shifted around a little bit, the most dramatic being in the Shoulders where the Swiftrike plummet to 10th place from 2nd, but you also changed the value of haste compared to everything else a LOT, so frankly I think your example is quite tainted anyways.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Ardonomus

I just tested and mongoose does stack with my passive 2.35% from the Fists of Mukoa.

I also tested the Madness of the Betrayer with passive -armor, and it stacks as well. Sadly I don't have Executioner so I can't check if the three of them stack.

 

punkrockrobot

Has anyone seen the new Badge Items?
What do you guys think of the new leather and Mail items?

The Fist MH and OH but both are 2.50 and both are 103.0 (Damage per sec). I was wondering how much would this effect dps compared to 2.60speed weapons and WF procs.

 

Ardonomus

If you read a couple of posts before you ask you'd have seen that the new badge items has indeed been seen, theorycrafted, EP-valued and tested in simulations.

Yo!s simulator is your friend.

 

Redback

Anyone use a cast sequence macro for one button shock rotation?

I have been using this and it works quite well.

 

Rhahk

I remember reading at the beginning of this last patch that Relentless Earthstorm Diamond was bugged and did not work with white damage anymore. I also noticed something else with white damage that made me think it was all bugged (that is my crit rate against a high resilience person remaining same as on character screen for white damage but not for windfury/stormstrike). In light of this, I haven't been using my T4 helm with the Diamond in it, instead opting for the Coif of the Jungle Stalker with three 8 strength gems in it. I use MaxDPS.com religiously in my pursuit of better gear to obtain, and through it's advice have everything (with rare exception) gemmed with 8 strength gems and cannot even use the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond in any case.

The reason of my posting is basically, how wrong am I? It seemed a reasonable conclusion at the time, though I wonder if all of the facts are straight.

 

Atren

Unless i remember wrong RED was fixed long ago. Relying on maxdps religiously is not that safe option really. You should do your own comparison spreadsheet if have time using personal values from Yo's simulator.

 

◊ Wraithlin

I suspect the loot ranking we see is an artifact of itemization.
In particular almost all the "best in slot" items are rogue leather which have the dps stats split between crit,agi,hit and AP. Crit and agi will always have a fixed AEP relationship, and items heavy with hit are strictly inferior to those light on hit at any reasonable set of AEP values. So immediately you get a ranking where items with alot of hit will sink to the bottom, everything else will move up and down at relatively the same rate because the AEP for crit and agi are correlated.

The key here is that the value of crit,agi, and hit tend to move very little relative to each other, usually less than 0.3 aep difference. Converting 20 crit to 20 hit is more often than not less than a 5AEP difference at any itemization level which is quickly absorbed by ilevels, so the relative rankings stay the same; items with alot of hit will stay at the bottom of the pile.

The value of these stats relative to strength is much more dynamic, but there is no good itemiszation (pre 2.4) which actually has any strength, so this does not impact the rankings. If more of the loot had str on it, then you would see a much greater fluctuation in the ranking of items short on str as the vales of crit/agi/hit fluctuate. Armor pen is another good example, it tends to change from 0.22 to 0.25, but even on an item of 200Armor Pen thats a less than 5 AEP change, so again its absorbed by the ilevels of various tiers.

The one stat that does show great variance is expertise, but it is very sparingly applied and applied generally as an "extra" stat and generally only on ilevel items; this goes for haste as well in many cases. So although those items with significant haste and Expertise may show a wide variance in their AEP worth at each gear level, they tend to already be at the top because of their ilevel and the fact their itemization is already spread between more stats and thus more efficiently.

A low level (T4) item with Str, AP and expertise would really move up and down the loot ranking alot at various gear levels; but that itemization does not yet exist.

 

Stopokingme

Alright thanks a lot for this information. I figured SS would have some impact on offhand value of expertise, but didn't think it was this much.

 

Pitbuller

Wraithlin:
"A low level (T4) item with Str, AP and expertise would really move up and down the loot ranking alot at various gear levels; but that itemization does not yet exist."

[Clefthoof Hide Leggings] I want more this kind piece of jewelry. About ~218ep.

Edit: Expertice was feral skill rating. So Blizzard didnt intentionally desing these. Just like [Edgemaster's Handguards] was designed to crap and luckily turned twink diamond.
Edit2: link show old stats.

Edgemaster's Handguards
Equip: Improves hit rating by 19 (2.4%@49).
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 17 (8.6%@49).

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Malan

Well those were crap prior to the expertise change though, they had dagger skill or feral skill, something like that.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Hexxus

Using Mid-Level Raid EPs

Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2 EP (2.2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Agility = 1.8 EP (2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Crit Rating = 2 EP
Hit Rating = 1.4 EP
Haste Rating = 1.48 EP
Armor Penetration = 0.28 EP


Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality
Main Hand
180-335 Damage
Speed 2.50
103.0 damage per second (930.09 ep)
+23 agi (46 ep)
haste rating +21 (31.08 ep)
attkpwr +44 (44 ep)
TOTAL: 1051.17 ep

Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality
Off Hand
180-335 Damage
Speed 2.50
103.0 damage per second (381.1 ep)
haste +23 (34.04 ep)
hit +21 (35.49 ep)
attkpwr +44 (44 ep)
TOTAL: 494.63 ep

DPS values were using 2.6 EPs, which is obviously wrong.
1 MH DPS = 9.03 AEP
1 OH DPS = 3.70 AEP
DPS values are discussed here: http://elitistjerks.com/517715-post4039.html.
2.5 values should be less than the 2.6 values. But I'm not sure by how much.

 

Pitbuller

If I calculate new wDps(post 2.3 mentall quickness change) Ep how many shock per 2 minute is good avarage?
This will lower wDps Ep values about 10-15%.

Edit: without reverbation 18shock/2min is absolute max when prior SS. I think 15 would be avarage. I suck at shocking when twisting (only 12-14/2min)

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Rapparee

If you're doing theoretical numbers, then 24 or 20 are the correct amount of shocks in terms of true potential DPS.

A few weeks ago, our new enhancement shaman did 15.6 shocks per 120 seconds on Teron. The other fights he was present for were Illidan and council, interrupting priest, neither of which is good for counting shocks.

 

Rhaegal

Looking at a few old personal WWS reports of Nalorakk, I find that in practice, 15 (give or take 2 depending on luck and other factors) is a good number for me, too, due to overlapping GCDs and occasionally waiting to push any buttons until WF CD is up.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

• Binkenstein

Rather than focusing on a "rotation" (ie: you do this stuff in this order), would borrowing the affliction lock/shadow priest's "priority queue" system be better?

Ie: SS with WF coming off cooldown > SS > Flame SHock > Earth shock, with totem recasts put in there somewhere.

So if WF is coming off cooldown, and SS is up, wait and use SS. If not, SS if its up. Then Flame shock if the dot has expired, otherwise Earth shock if the shock CD is up

 

◊ Wraithlin

I already use that style for twisting, simply because if you delay for WF you cant hit anything close to a repeatable rotation. My priority order is usually: SS>WF (if the buff has or will expire)>FS(if the dot has run down)>ES>GoA. If SS has coolddown but WF has not Ill go on downt he priority chain until WF is off CD.

Im floating at around 1k DPS which is a little off my theoretical max but not a massive amount (Yo's sim puts me around 1100 theoretical max, I have hit 1140 on FLK if I dont twist).

 

Patrik

Executioner and [Madness of the Betrayer] proc do stack, I've just tried it on PTR. 1140 armor penetration combined.

 

Renly

Hey,

Basically I can't get Yo!s calculator to work. I've searched the thread, and all the suggestions are to update to the latest version of Java. I've done this twice, and when I go to the calculator There's just a box with a broken graphics icon.

I'm running Firefox 2.0 and the latest version of Java I can find for Mac OS 10.4.

Alternately, is there another calculator/simulator as widely used as Yo!s? That's the only one I see mentioned with consistency

Thanks!

EDIT: fixed a typo

 

Macar

I am also having trouble to get it to work on Windows Vista, latest Java client and Mozilla Firefox. In Internet Explorer it works though. My suggestion is to try another web browser for his task.

http://www.siglaunch.com/sigs/wow/1/...11159sMIJL.png