Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 295

rava · 02/23/08, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Genzou

I managed 2.86 on live with Dragonstrike and no BL. I'm guessing those numbers are due to server/client latency and not haste affecting the cd on WF

That's pretty much what I expected. It would have been a nice change, though.

Genshoku · 02/23/08, 1:43 PM

Hey guys,
Long time troller of the EJ forums, first time poster. Thanks for all the work everyone has put into the Shaman theorycrafting, nothing better than empircal data to ensure you're putting out the highest dps possible.

I have a question about haste mechanics and figured this would be the best place to ask as it pertains to the shaman class in specific.

Givens:
Weapon speed - 2.8 (siphon)/ 2.6 (rising tide)
Full t6 equivalent gear minus a couple slots (Main spec is resto)

When a weapon is hasted to a lower speed it obviously increases white damage done, but does the proc modifier haste with it? I.e. a 2.8 speed weapon has a higher chance to proc mongoose/executioner, does the %to proc scale with real time swing speed or does it keep its 2.8 value? Also is windfury based off of the same proc system or, after the 3 second timer is up is attack speed negated and any hit has the same chance to proc a windfury, regardless of swing speed?

Thanks in advance

Urstroyer · 02/23/08, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Genzou

I managed 2.86 on live with Dragonstrike and no BL. I'm guessing those numbers are due to server/client latency and not haste affecting the cd on WF

anyone tried this with haste potions, if haste ratings affects the cd we should see a difference. if not it could probably be a server latancy issue.

Pitbuller · 02/23/08, 1:54 PM

Can someone test this(wf cd haste scaling) without flurry and haste gear/procs. If then test shows under 3s results we could just point to lag.

oglas · 02/23/08, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by Disquette

I am, for one, VERY SKEPTICAL of stuff like this, given how badly lag plays with the combat log.
If haste affected WF's cooldown, then DST should make more than a (2.93 - 2.79) / 2.93 = 4.7% difference.
Moreover, as lag could easily explain this stuff, I'd want to see averages versus averages, not one minimum being less than another minimum.

Problem is, to see if the haste thing DOES affect the WF cooldown, we would need some EXTENSIVE testing (more than 6 hours AT THE VERY LEAST). All these 15ish minute tests we did prove nothing.

For example... Lets say haste does reduce WF cooldown by same amount it reduces time between swings... So DST would reduce the minimum time between WFs to i.e. 2.5 sec... It would take quite a lot of swings to get 1 swing at 0.0 sec and then another one at exactly 2.51 sec. If it would even be possible to get them so precise. First we'd need to know weapon attack speed, calculate the closest possible number to the one we get with calculating minimum time between two windfury attacks. then take into account that WF procs only 1/5 swings in average. Messy.

Also, my in-game ping was 56 ms, addon showed windfury procced 210 ms "earlier", not quite sure how big the server lag
is, so I will not make any big statements until someone does get a bigger gap or some combat log proof.

Urstroyer · 02/23/08, 2:45 PM

I run some test with the windfury timer now and here are the results.

Hitting a blasted lands mob for about 30 minutes with all 37 haste rating on gear, haste potions, drums of war and troll berserk i wasn't able to beat the lowest cooldown 2.74 seconds. my ping was at 26ms at this moment, so i assume the reason is a latency issue.

to confirm that, i tabbed in windows and back to wow a couple of times to simulate a client -> server lag and the addon gave me some freaky numbers:

• Weem · 02/23/08, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

[e] In an excellent change, Blizzard has reduced the mat requirements for some of the crafted items and removed the Sunmotes from them! http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...sundusk_v2.jpg

They increased the requirements and removed the Sunmotes from the chest and replaced them with nethers.

Old: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...duskshadow.jpg
New: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...sundusk_v2.jpg

Mox · 02/23/08, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Gehenna

Assuming everyone will be using a shard of contempt, it is worth mentioning that using T6 shoulders and the 3 new T6 items less viable now due to the combination of items giving you 112 expertise. something like 9 expertise wasted stat points.

Well it's not really 9 wasted points, because theres alot of bosses that twist/turn to cast spells and other times when hitting a boss from front for afew secs is unavoidable. So while it may be wasted on dodge reduction, still "kinda" useful for parry prevention.

CeNo65 · 02/23/08, 3:47 PM

so pissed right now

12 gold FTL

◊ Malan · 02/23/08, 7:10 PM

Originally Posted by Weem

They increased the requirements and removed the Sunmotes from the chest and replaced them with nethers.

Yah sorry that wasn't clear of me. I meant that they reduced the need for the sunmotes, making them easier to craft overall.

HirayaTube · 02/23/08, 7:38 PM

Before I bring up my topic, I want to mention that I did what I could to comb the forums with the search option to see if this had been brought up before, not just on the enhance shaman thread but on the entire forums, but from what I gathered it doesn't seem to have been yet.

Okay, I know the tests have been done and it has been formulated that twohanders are inferior to dual wielding due to twohanders having far less uptime on UR and flurry, but I wonder... if one were to stack enough haste rating, could it increase the uptime of flurry and UR to the point where it would make twohanded a viable option for raid dps? Mind you, I'm not bringing this up as an advocate of twohanders, I'm just curious if this is an avenue that has been explored yet.

Bragor · 02/23/08, 7:47 PM

Why do you even consider that ?

Won't the same effect also apply to DW weapons too ?

Gehenna · 02/23/08, 7:54 PM

No, there is basically no way on the face of wow to make 2 handers even trod into the range of viable.

Haste seems tempting, but it's actually better for DW when you consider it is working on 2 weapons and not 1.

Lastly, the although shamanistic rage may be an issue, flurry isn't, flurry uptime is based on crit % anyway.

HirayaTube · 02/23/08, 8:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bragor

Why do you even consider that ?

Won't the same effect also apply to DW weapons too ?

My reasoning was that since it would be a twohander, you could forgo anything with +hit gear and not have to worry about having that 100'ish hit rating. But again I'm not married to the idea, it was just a thought. If there's no way it would ever work out, so be it. But I at least wanted to see what others thought of it, that's all.

Gehenna · 02/23/08, 8:16 PM

you get basically 6 free hit from talents, so you don't need to devote anything to + hit if you don't want to. With a two hander equipped i miss.

Omniro · 02/23/08, 8:41 PM

I have a little question concerning WF.
Since I'm a fan of theorycraft (and have been for quite a while) I do make spreadsheets for my personal use sometimes.

Now I was working on an enhancement shaman spreadsheet and run into the problem that i couldn't quite figure out if WF would procc about the same amount of times from each weapon, using two with same speed (e.g. 2.6) or if one of the weapons (hopefully MH if so) procced WF more often.

Secondly I tried to simulate the pps(procc per second)-chance of WF. Basicly it is easy because I can calculate how often it proccs, if there wasn't the internal cd of 3sec (or lower if I interpret correctly what you have been discussing lately).
What I come up with was something like:

(1/MH-speed + 1/OH-speed)*procchance (here 36%)

I thought about multiplying that with a static number, but i can't wrap my head around what number it might be (Thought about 1/3,2/3 or 2/5). Maybe somebody here does have a suggestion on this?

Your input would be greatly appriciated.

• Weem · 02/23/08, 9:07 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Yah sorry that wasn't clear of me. I meant that they reduced the need for the sunmotes, making them easier to craft overall.

The need for sunmotes are still there. They also increased the amount of everything else and added primal mights and fel hide.

◊ Malan · 02/23/08, 9:09 PM

Huh. Apparently the Carapace never required sunmotes than, cause thats what I was looking at.

Genzou · 02/23/08, 9:38 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Huh. Apparently the Carapace never required sunmotes than, cause thats what I was looking at.

yeah, carapace didn't. (might be you looked at the wrong item as they've changes places in the two shots) the added primal mights suck somewhat, but I guess it's only fitting considering how great these items are

Rhaegal · 02/24/08, 4:43 AM

The general rule seems to be that the crafted pieces fall into one of two categories:
(1) Requires Sunmotes to craft, but is BoE (soft progression restriction - theoretically can be bought), or
(2) Does not require Sunmotes to craft, but is BoP (hard progression restriction).

I haven't looked through all of the craftables from every profession, mostly just tailoring and leatherworking, but it seemed a fairly consistent (and unsurprising) trend.

Otion · 02/24/08, 11:59 AM

I posted the following in the Wowhead forums where I was promptly challenged to repost it in this thread. I suppose I'm second guessing whatever you guys at EJ have already done to figure out why 2.6 s is the best weapon speed, but if someone could point out my mistake(s), I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

The ideal weapon speed while leveling up is not 2.6 s.

2.6 s weapons are ideal when you have flurry and bloodlust and the stacked effects change your weapon speed to be 1.54 s.
2.6 s / 1.3 / 1.3 = 1.54 s

Before 70, when your only haste effect is likely to be flurry, the ideal weapon speed is actually 2.0 s.

Without a haste effect, 2.6 s weapons have a chance to proc WF every 2 attacks, at the 5.2 s mark. This is 2.2 s outside of WF's cooldown window. It's nearly doubled.

Using a 2.0 s weapon, we still proc WF every 2 attacks, this time at the 4.0 s mark. 1.0 s outside the WF cooldown. This is considerably more procs than a 2.6 s weapon, especially considering that the crit chance of a level 40+ is going to be appreciably lower than that of a geared 70.

Under the effects of flurry, a 2.6 s weapon's speed will become 2.0 s. Under this supposedly idealized condition, our weapon is now attacking and proccing WF at the same rate a 2.0 s weapon normally does.
2.6 s / 1.3 = 2.0 s

Meanwhile, a 2.0 s weapon under the effect of flurry speeds up to 1.54 s. This is the same speed as a 2.0 s weapon under both flurry and bloodlust; you lose almost no time outside of WF's cooldown before you are swinging and trying to proc WF again.
2.0 s / 1.3 = 1.54 s

I believe that the ideal weapon speed while leveling up is 2.0 s, not 2.6 s.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that 2.0 s may be more viable for dps than 2.6 s even at 70, because a 2.0 s weapon will attack at 1.18 s intervals under flurry and bloodlust.
2.0 s / 1.3 / 1.3 = 1.18 s
1.18 s * 3 = 3.55 s

This is more time outside the window than a 2.6 s weapon (3.55 s compared to 3.08 s), but bloodlust lasts for a relatively short period of time for a relatively long cooldown. I'd be interested to see the results of testing, except that there are no viable 2.0 s weapons at 70. The closest is Fel Edged Battleaxe.

Omniro · 02/24/08, 1:11 PM

Hm, wouldn't you be lowering your WF-damage by using two faster weapons that have less average damage?
Let's say two weapons with 2.6 an 91dps and two weapons with 2.0 and also 91.dps. Meaning one is 2.6*91=236.6 average and the other 2.0*91=182 avg.

Proccing WF (at 1800ap or something):
- with the 2.0: 182+257 for the normal attack plus 182+257+89  twice for the procc
- with the 2.6: 236+334 normal plus 236+334+115.7 twice for procc

this on the 3.08 and the 3.55 timer comes down to:
2.0: 1495 every 3.08 =  485 dps
2.6: 1941 every 3.55 =  546 dps

So I think it is quite accurate to say that 2.6 is still alot better

Leonina · 02/24/08, 1:25 PM

Also, you get better benefit from stormstrike with slower weps.

Dukanull · 02/24/08, 3:05 PM

Has the internal cooldown on windfury on haste been completely shot down? I have hundreds of haste pots, dst, and quite a bit of haste gear paired with quite a bit of free time and a copy of my shaman on the ptr, if anyone could tell me how to test it (if it still needs testing). I grabbed the wf cd addon, anything else I need to know/download?