Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 296

Omniro · 02/24/08, 5:55 PM

Can't tell you from personal experience but I see alot of MH exec OH mungo shamans.

Illundai · 02/24/08, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Lakai

I've been reading this thread almost since day one, and now after Executioner come out, and me beeing killing illidan for months and got all best shaman enhancement gear avaiable, i enchted one of my syphons with executioner, tho i never read on the forum is there is any diference betwen MH/OH enchts, so EXec/Mong or Mong/Exe? anyone got an idea?

Just got the S3 weapons and dont really know where to encht with what.

Horrible grammar aside... run the sim. It's quite simple. For me Exec/Mongoose was a little better, so I went for it.

Ardonomus · 02/24/08, 6:06 PM

Originally Posted by Lakai

I've been reading this thread almost since day one, and now after Executioner come out, and me beeing killing illidan for months and got all best shaman enhancement gear avaiable, i enchted one of my syphons with executioner, tho i never read on the forum is there is any diference betwen MH/OH enchts, so EXec/Mong or Mong/Exe? anyone got an idea?

Just got the S3 weapons and dont really know where to encht with what.

Simulation is your friend. Try all the combos.

[e] Damnit, beaten to it.

◊ Shalas · 02/24/08, 6:21 PM

Originally Posted by Otion

I posted the following in the Wowhead forums where I was promptly challenged to repost it in this thread. I suppose I'm second guessing whatever you guys at EJ have already done to figure out why 2.6 s is the best weapon speed, but if someone could point out my mistake(s), I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

Time outside of the cooldown window is a meaningless number. In the range of weapon speeds (1.5, 3.0), the actual WF proc rate is constant if you ignore Flurry and SS (as within that range, you have exactly one swing with each hand that can't proc after each proc). With a constant proc rate, the number of procs is directly inversely proportional to the size of the procs, making the damage constant. However, SS is unnormalized, which vastly favors slow weapons. As a result, there's exactly one level where 2.0 speed weapons would be acceptable, and a good argument could be made for taking SS before DW anyway. There is no situation that doesn't involve very carefully stacked amounts of passive haste where 2.0/2.0 is better than 2.6/2.6.

Lujaar · 02/24/08, 10:20 PM

Lakai-

Assuming you're using two weapons with the same speed - like your dual S3 - there shouldn't be any difference between Exe/Mongoose and Mongoose/Exe. If you see a difference in a sim, you're looking at the sim's margin of error. There *might* be a tiny difference if your weapons are different speeds, but even in that case you're more likely to see the sim's margin of error than anything real.

The difference between Mongoose and Exe is pretty small in the first place, and which you put on which speed weapon is going to make like a 1% difference in its proc rate. The difference is too small to simulate unless you're willing to run the sim for days on end.

Psykhe · 02/25/08, 6:07 AM

Originally Posted by Lujaar

Assuming you're using two weapons with the same speed - like your dual S3 - there shouldn't be any difference between Exe/Mongoose and Mongoose/Exe. If you see a difference in a sim, you're looking at the sim's margin of error.

Incorrect. The MH will attack and therefore proc its enchant slightly more often.

This is because of the WF cooldown. While the MH and OH attack at the same time the MH gets "priority" in the calculations (AFAIK, at least). So if WF procs on the MH and OH at the same time only the MH WF proc will happen since the OHs WF will be canceled since it is then in the WF cooldown.

So, assuming WF isn't on cooldown because of a proc in the last 3 seconds, on the MH you have a 30% chance to proc WF while on the OH you have a 0.7 (no MH wf proc chance) * 0.3 (OH WF proc chance) -> 0.21 -> 21% chance to proc WF.

Same number of white damage + stormstrike attacks + ~50% more WF proc attacks on MH -> more MH weapon enchantment procs.

tepee007 · 02/25/08, 9:01 AM

I've got a few questions I hope some peeps can help me out with

1. What's the best shock rotation and or best way to do damage (ie flame shock stormstrike then earthshock), I'm having a hard time on meters and wondering if I'm doing something wrong.

2. What's more important crit or ap?

3. What is the best legendary weapon to use on the Kael fight?

4. I'm rocking mongoose/crusader right now, will mongoose/mongoose be a noticeable upgrade?

5. I'm setting at around 120ish on hit, is this enough after talents, should I get more or can I drop some?

LazyJoe · 02/25/08, 9:29 AM

You pretty well summarized the whole "Questions you shouldn't ask because you have the answer in the OP" thing.

Gehenna · 02/25/08, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Kyuki

I pulled 1400 DPS on Teron last night. 1 Heroism, 1 drum, lotp, BS and EW. No haste pots, no twisting.

I'm a resto shammy, and respecced last night just to see how my DPS would work out (mostly for fun, and we have no enh shammy atm).
I'm wearing quite a few Kara pieces and some end-game pieces, and also a blue ring from a regular 70 instance and lvl62 quest reward trinket from HP :P
I could use a regeming on my pants aswell (very old and did the geming very very long time ago).

Anyway, I dont even have a Enh totem in my totem slot.. My gear is far from optimal, and i still produced some decent numbers there, so yes I agree. 1k DPS on Teron seems modest if you are a raiding Enh shammy.

I know it's been awhile since this post, but i thought i'd post a decent WWS from me to compare to Kyuki's.

Kwatee - WWS

I don't remember what gear she was using, but i know it wasn't optimal, and neither is mine, so perhaps we can get a decent comparison. Minus weapons, my gear is pretty close to Keiji's i think.

Rhaegal · 02/25/08, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Psykhe

Incorrect. The MH will attack and therefore proc its enchant slightly more often.

This is because of the WF cooldown. While the MH and OH attack at the same time the MH gets "priority" in the calculations (AFAIK, at least). So if WF procs on the MH and OH at the same time only the MH WF proc will happen since the OHs WF will be canceled since it is then in the WF cooldown.

So, assuming WF isn't on cooldown because of a proc in the last 3 seconds, on the MH you have a 30% chance to proc WF while on the OH you have a 0.7 (no MH wf proc chance) * 0.3 (OH WF proc chance) -> 0.21 -> 21% chance to proc WF.

Same number of white damage + stormstrike attacks + ~50% more WF proc attacks on MH -> more MH weapon enchantment procs.

I've never seen anything resembling this math, and it directly conflicts with the OP. Am I confused and misunderstanding you?

Rhaegal · 02/25/08, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Otion

I posted the following in the Wowhead forums where I was promptly challenged to repost it in this thread. I suppose I'm second guessing whatever you guys at EJ have already done to figure out why 2.6 s is the best weapon speed, but if someone could point out my mistake(s), I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

You're neglecting to account for both Stormstrike and each WF proc hitting a lot harder with slower weapons. Also, we don't base our gear around a 10 minute CD that doesn't even do as much for us as it does for other classes. 2.6 speed isn't some mystical "ideal speed," either--any good enh shaman will tell you that 2.8 > 2.7 > 2.6 > 2.5 etc etc.--every bit you can add to the speed of the weapon will, assuming all other stats are the same, increase your DPS. If you don't believe it, run the sim with a 2.6 spd and a 2.8 spd. Try 2.0 speed if you want.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but there are too many other factors that make it wrong. It's the same kind argument as someone made (believe it or not) in favor of rogues always using two very fast weapons because they'd get more MH poison applications with a faster one--true, but irrelevant when you consider the whole picture.

◊ Shalas · 02/25/08, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Psykhe

Incorrect. The MH will attack and therefore proc its enchant slightly more often.

This is because of the WF cooldown. While the MH and OH attack at the same time the MH gets "priority" in the calculations (AFAIK, at least).

This has not been proven. It's possible to control which hand appears first in the combat log, but I've never seen a parse which clearly shows that the hand that appears first actually gets the first chance to proc WF. However, it has been demonstrated countless times that the order events appear in the combat log is not nessesarily the order that the server processed the events. If the OH does actually always proc second, it should be fairly easy to prove this, as it would give the OH a 36% (not 30%) lower proc rate than the MH.

However, if your weapons are different speeds, you want Executioner on the slower one (or no Executioner at all).

Kyuki · 02/25/08, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Gehenna

I know it's been awhile since this post, but i thought i'd post a decent WWS from me to compare to Kyuki's.

Kwatee - WWS

I don't remember what gear she was using, but i know it wasn't optimal, and neither is mine, so perhaps we can get a decent comparison. Minus weapons, my gear is pretty close to Keiji's i think.

What do you mean with comparision? I still only posted because I thought that enh shammies in guilds that kill Teron should produce more than 1k DPS, and I will still not bend to that, but it doesnt really have a meaning or point anyway.

Gehenna · 02/25/08, 12:52 PM

I guess to compare what separates a shaman from doing 1k DPS on Teron to one doing 1.4k to one doing 1.8k.

At any rate, i agree with you.

Psykhe · 02/25/08, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by Rhaegal

I've never seen anything resembling this math, and it directly conflicts with the OP. Am I confused and misunderstanding you?

I think so. Please elaborate why you think it conflicts with the OP because I cannot see it.

(Exept me having a brainfart and using a 30% wf procrate. It is 20%.)

Originally Posted by Shalas

This has not been proven. It's possible to control which hand appears first in the combat log, but I've never seen a parse which clearly shows that the hand that appears first actually gets the first chance to proc WF. However, it has been demonstrated countless times that the order events appear in the combat log is not nessesarily the order that the server processed the events. If the OH does actually always proc second, it should be fairly easy to prove this, as it would give the OH a 36% (not 30%) lower proc rate than the MH.

Not..exactly.

Firstly, as said before, I used the incorrect WF procrate. It is 20%, not 30%.
Me playing a rogue 2 years ago still has some backlashes it seems, I keep using the deadly poison procrate for stuff like this if I am not thinking.

The 36% proc rate of the OP comes from *both* weapons.

It is standard probability math. Each weapon has a 20% to proc WF on attack, meaning it has a 80% chance NOT to proc it per attack. The chance for both weapons NOT to proc it is 0.8 * 0.8 -> 0.64 or 64%, meaning the chance to proc it with either MH or OH - or both - is 36%. If you ignore the dual wield miss chance.

But, yes, the OH should have a smaller amount of WF procs. 20% less than the MH, though, not 36%.

The thing about the "order" of attacks - if both attacks happen at the same time there can be three ways how WoW is calculating it:

- it always calculates MH first, OH second
- it always calculates OH first, MH second
- it uses a randomizer for each attack of both hands at the same time to see which hand is calculated first.

The second options seems kinda strange and illogical.
The 3rd option.. why use a randomizer? Having a fixed MH first, OH second is far simpler and uses fewer recources and I donot see any balance or gameplay reasons why they would have to make it more complex.

Frostspock · 02/25/08, 1:43 PM

My shammy recently acquired Fury in ZA. I did have dual Decaptitators (both w/ mongoose). However, from what I've read since Fury is a higher DPS weapon (and an OH weapon) I should just keep the Decapitator in my offhand cause it will hurt my dps? Is that right? Just wondering cause I just got mongoose put on the Fury off hand. Thanks guys this thread is incredibly useful for those of us still learning.

Doora · 02/25/08, 2:45 PM

Having more dps, same speed, and more valuable stats(30ap 8str 20hit vs 27crit), I'd say Fury should be a better off hand option than decapitator.

Unless running the sim point you to prioritize crit rating heavily, there is nothing agaist having more dps on your offhand than on your main hand

Rodandwa · 02/25/08, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by Frostspock

My shammy recently acquired Fury in ZA. I did have dual Decaptitators (both w/ mongoose). However, from what I've read since Fury is a higher DPS weapon (and an OH weapon) I should just keep the Decapitator in my offhand cause it will hurt my dps? Is that right? Just wondering cause I just got mongoose put on the Fury off hand. Thanks guys this thread is incredibly useful for those of us still learning.

Fury main hand, Decapitator off-hand would be the better DPS combo, but since Fury is off-hand only, off-handing it with Decapitator will not lower your DPS. Go Decapitator main/Fury off.

◊ Shalas · 02/25/08, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by Psykhe

Not..exactly.

Firstly, as said before, I used the incorrect WF procrate. It is 20%, not 30%.
Me playing a rogue 2 years ago still has some backlashes it seems, I keep using the deadly poison procrate for stuff like this if I am not thinking.

The 36% proc rate of the OP comes from *both* weapons.

It is standard probability math. Each weapon has a 20% to proc WF on attack, meaning it has a 80% chance NOT to proc it per attack. The chance for both weapons NOT to proc it is 0.8 * 0.8 -> 0.64 or 64%, meaning the chance to proc it with either MH or OH - or both - is 36%. If you ignore the dual wield miss chance.

When you have two weapons with WFW on them, each individual hit has a 36% chance to proc WF. This is a bug which has always existed and is very well documented. Each "pair" of attacks has a 59.04% chance of a WF proc. This is a mostly meaningless number which says nothing useful, though.

Originally Posted by Psykhe

The thing about the "order" of attacks - if both attacks happen at the same time there can be three ways how WoW is calculating it:

- it always calculates MH first, OH second
- it always calculates OH first, MH second
- it uses a randomizer for each attack of both hands at the same time to see which hand is calculated first.

The second options seems kinda strange and illogical.
The 3rd option.. why use a randomizer? Having a fixed MH first, OH second is far simpler and uses fewer recources and I donot see any balance or gameplay reasons why they would have to make it more complex.

Or it could work how everything else in WoW appears to work: There are seperate scheduled events for each hand. Each of these events have a very high chance of getting processed by different worker threads, and which one finishes first depends entirely on which one the thread manager happens to give more CPU time to. An entirely deterministic process, which from our perspective is nearly indistinguishable from random selection.

Touf · 02/25/08, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by Gehenna

I guess to compare what separates a shaman from doing 1k DPS on Teron to one doing 1.4k to one doing 1.8k.

Fight length, mainly.

Toots Hepcat · 02/25/08, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by Shalas

Or it could work how everything else in WoW appears to work: There are seperate scheduled events for each hand. Each of these events have a very high chance of getting processed by different worker threads, and which one finishes first depends entirely on which one the thread manager happens to give more CPU time to. An entirely deterministic process, which from our perspective is nearly indistinguishable from random selection.

Actually, this is the definition of "indeterministic" process (one where two runs can produce different outcomes). You are right that it is random, but it really isn't the same as purposely "rolling," it's simply an accident of asynchronous processing.

The reason for it makes sense when you think about it. Despite some of the great speculation on the issue, there's nothing really all that special about having two weapons of the same speed. Two same speed weapons will still have two separate swing timers producing two separate cycles and there's not even any guarantee that two weapons of the same speed will swing at the same time -- indeed, if you start and stop autoattack in combat, your offhand will be at least half a cycle out of sync with your main hand. Thus, it makes sense that each hand is treated as its own separate entity for purposes of evaluation, and it also makes sense that these evaluations may occur in any order, provided that they occur at the same "instant."

Simulators, on the other hand, no doubt evaluate the MH first over the OH, which will give the MH a bias that may not exist in game (the "spikes" in the MH vs OH graph). Anybody got two same-speed weapons and a good, real-world evaluation of MH vs OH procs and a comparison with simulations of the same gear?

Othieus · 02/25/08, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by tepee007

I've got a few questions I hope some peeps can help me out with

1. What's the best shock rotation and or best way to do damage (ie flame shock stormstrike then earthshock), I'm having a hard time on meters and wondering if I'm doing something wrong.

2. What's more important crit or ap?

3. What is the best legendary weapon to use on the Kael fight?

4. I'm rocking mongoose/crusader right now, will mongoose/mongoose be a noticeable upgrade?

5. I'm setting at around 120ish on hit, is this enough after talents, should I get more or can I drop some?

This is sad.
You obviously didn't read the OP.....just like many, many others.

Rhaegal · 02/25/08, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by Shalas

When you have two weapons with WFW on them, each individual hit has a 36% chance to proc WF. This is a bug which has always existed and is very well documented.

This is what I was referring to as Psycke contradicting the OP. I know 20% is what the tooltip on the skill says, but that's not the reality of the skill, based on extensive testing.

buzzed1979 · 02/25/08, 6:14 PM

i have not had a chance to read all 300 pages of this thread. i have browsed alot of it but what i want doesn't seem to be in here. for my rogue i have a exel spreadsheet that i can plug the armor that i currently have(armor, gems, weapons, enchants) and i can input my talent spec and then i hit a button and it lets me know a list of upgrades for that slot. Max DPS web site is close but doesn't have the plug in option my rogue one has. is there a exel spreadsheet file that i can download out there for enhancement shaman? if some1 has posted one in this thread that i have missed i am sorry but i missed it. i just want the number crunching to be a bit easier for me. i have a lot of good gear and am nowhere near what it seems i shood be in dps. granted i have been healing for 6 months and am not used to it but i shood be doing better IMO. i am a top 5 dps when i raid on my rogue so i know hoe to dps but need a lil help w/ my shammy.

tetracycloide · 02/25/08, 6:40 PM

Originally Posted by buzzed1979

i have browsed alot of it but what i want doesn't seem to be in here.

Far be it from me to call you a liar but did it seems almost impossible that one could manage to browse 'alot of it' without managing to read the entire first post. Try looking under '3 Itemizing an Enhancement Shaman' for an answer to your query.