Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 298

vorda · 11/01/07, 7:49 AM

I'm questioning the use of this topic at the moment. More then half of the posts on the last 10+ (yes, I pulled this number out my ass but I'm sure more people here share the feelings) is from new posters comming here questioning our hit rating results or just being plain ignorant in general.

Maybe some special "stop annoying everyone with your feelings/questions about hit rating/etc" moderation might be needed for this topic?

Malan · 11/01/07, 8:19 AM

Originally Posted by LazyJoe

First you never miss with stormstrike even with 0 +hit, which is a significant part of your total hits (around 16% with 2.6 weapons).

You may even say that increasing your hit decreases your WF proc rate but i personnally dislike this because it tends to confuse people when they see it, you don't reduce your number of windfury procs, but instead you increase your white hits (which leads to a smaller proc rate).

Stormstrike certainly can, and will, miss if you have 0 Hit, and it should generally be 10% of your DPS, not 16%, and its not dependent on the weapon speed. If you were using daggers I would expect the damage ratio to be 10% for SS same as with 2.6 weapons.

Increasing your Hit does NOT reduce your WF "proc rate". Its going to be 36% when DW or 20% otherwise, no matter what your +hit is. Increasing your hit changes the % of your total damage that WF will equate to, and that's all. The proc rate is, with some variation from the RNG, fairly constant.

The amount of absurd logic over the past 4 pages (2 days of posts) is astounding. And I agree with the poster above me. Stop bothering us with posts that say "well I feel like hit is more important." We don't care what you feel. If you don't want to accept the mathematics of the situation, or the simulated combat results that back up our findings, and even the empirical results from WWS parses, then don't. Go on your merry way, but stop posting about about it.

LazyJoe · 11/01/07, 8:38 AM

Well sorry i simplified a bit too much on this sentence

But well, if you only have the 9% hit from talent stormstrike never misses even on a boss, but still can be parried, dodged or blocked (as well as the normal hits).

The discussion is about hits proccing WF, so i was only taking into account the normal hits, not the windfury procs. If you consider hitting with always flurried 2.6 weapons (so 2.0 between hits) and no misses, SS is exactly 16,6666....% of your total hits (parries, dodges or blocks don't affect this because you have the same amount in white and yellow attacks). If you are not hit capped, SS is an even bigger part of your hits, it comes around 20% with ~100 hit.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that a significant part of our windfury are coming from stromstrike, and increasing hit will never ever increase those procs, this is one of the facts that makes hit less important for WF procs.

Originally Posted by Malan

Increasing your Hit does NOT reduce your WF "proc rate". Its going to be 36% when DW or 20% otherwise, no matter what your +hit is.

Sorry again, I was speaking about the global proc rate, I mean we all know that WF has a 20% or 36% proc rate on eligible hits, but the hidden cooldown and weapon speed, as well as your hit rating affect the real proc rate. We all know that using slow weapons leads to a better global proc rate. The same way, increasing your hit leads to a somewhat worse global proc rate because you will get more normal hits while gaining few WF procs.

Krom[Fenris] · 11/01/07, 8:58 AM

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's looking as though after 2.3 enchant setup will ideally be executioner/mongoose. Assuming an RT/syphon MH/OH combo, would you put the executioner on the MH?

Malan · 11/01/07, 9:02 AM

There's no evidence that either hand affects the proc rate, so it really doesn't matter. You can put it on either hand.

Patonus · 11/01/07, 9:03 AM

Originally Posted by Pitbuller

AEP difference is pretty small only 3. And this whole weapon AEP is pretty new threory. I personally use 8.48 mh Wdps AEP and 4.24 oh Wdps AEP. If you use those Rising tide > Netherbane. But my suggest is put your Rising tide to mainhand then choose Merciless gladiator pummeler or Netherbane to OH. Then just wait/hope that Syphon of the Nathrezim drop.

Thanks for responding! No one else did :-P

The issue I have with that is that the Merciless Weapon is ALSO more AEP than Rising Tide in the MH. Looks as if RT is worthless!

Illundai · 11/01/07, 9:10 AM

Time to hand out moderation privileges to Malan just for this thread!

About Executioner, I'm not convinced, does anyone have some math on it?

Kombinat · 11/01/07, 9:11 AM

Generally accepted thinking is that an enhancement shaman's DPS is made up, in rough numbers, of about 40% both white damage and windfury, with shocks and stormstrike taking up the last 20%, 10% each.

Generally accepted spec is to include all the +hit talents, for 9% hit in total. This hit caps, and then some, both windfury and stormstrike. You'll still get blocks, glancings, etc, but no misses.

So, 50% as a rough number is hit capped without any more + hit from gear. Given the existence of the 3 second WF cooldown, +hit loses any real relevance. It doesn't scale as well as crit, and hitting more often isn't all that helpful if WF is on CD. Hit effects 40% of your dps, where crit and AP effect 90%.

(Figures mentioned in this post are rough, vague recollections based on my reading this thread front to back several times. Apologies for their lack of mathematical concreteness)

Malan · 11/01/07, 9:17 AM

Originally Posted by Illundai

Time to hand out moderation privileges to Malan just for this thread!

About Executioner, I'm not convinced, does anyone have some math on it?

Rob worked it out at some point in this thread I think, or maybe someone linked it from another thread, I forget which. I believe that the ballpark figure was that Mongoose and Executioner basically provide the same DPS increase.

Illundai · 11/01/07, 9:22 AM

Yeah I saw that, figured maybe by now more people had run some tests on the PTR. Armor Penetration is nice I guess, but it's damn pretty seeying 50%+ crit on your character tab :P

Katherine · 11/01/07, 9:23 AM

Originally Posted by Illundai

About Executioner, I'm not convinced, does anyone have some math on it?

Search is your friend.
[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers

Illundai · 11/01/07, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Katherine

Search is your friend.
[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers

My bad, I was planning on asking for newer maths then those. As in maths from the latest PTR push, who knows whether Executioner not double stacking was intended or not.

drats · 11/01/07, 9:45 AM

Originally Posted by Patonus

Thanks for responding! No one else did :-P

The issue I have with that is that the Merciless Weapon is ALSO more AEP than Rising Tide in the MH. Looks as if RT is worthless!

That can't be correct. Rising tide has higher dps and top end dmg than the MGC. Even without thinking about SS or WF, the MGC would need minimum 35 more AP to equal the RT in dps. The reality is it's probably more.

AEP is a guideline, not law. Please use common sense when making judgments about weapon upgrades.

Malan · 11/01/07, 10:06 AM

I just did a quick calc of Rising Tide for MH and OH. MH shows it better than Arena S2 weapons at 978.2 AEP vs 962 AEP, OH shows it about even with Netherbane for the OH at 444.1 vs 447 AEP. Conclusion - if you have Rising Tide and Netherbane, use RT in the MH.

Tsalrioth · 11/01/07, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's looking as though after 2.3 enchant setup will ideally be executioner/mongoose. Assuming an RT/syphon MH/OH combo, would you put the executioner on the MH?

I would put mongoose on your MH, executioner on OH. This is solely for the reason that if you have to put on a shield, you want your wep in the Mh to have mongoose as it gives a slight bit more survivability then executioner.