drats

There's a whole thread on that here:
The Change to Windfury and You! (does not apply to warriors)

The general idea is that the WF bonus isn't halved but the damage still is. Everytime your OH procs it's keeping your MH from proccing for 3 seconds.

 

Jeht

Yes I understand that much, but why do they do less damage? Is it just from the DW off-hand penalty?

IE- mainhand attack WF damage would be: x+WF AP, offhand attack WF damage would be: x*.6 (or whatever the penalty is)+WF AP?

edit: OK I think I got it thank you.

 

• Nite_Moogle

Yes. The offhand damage is halved from what it would be if it were a main hand attack, then the bonus AP from Windfury Weapon's proc is applied.

Gurgthock: the time taken to implement the 10 hugs achievement could have been used to make a new 5-man

 

mek

Yeah. The original post is a little unclear on this, and it also has the consequence of CR being EQUAL to AP, after considering the item budget. Perhaps some clarification should indicate that AP and CR are equally good (approximately) due to their different itemization costs. It also means that Strength is superior to both, after considering Kings.

 

Azaranth

Is the goal of this thread for discussion, or only reference of 'confirmed' theroycraft? (The following seems out of place in the itemization thread.)

So, does anyone else juggle WF totem and AGI, trying to keep both up? I've got a hotkey for it (tied to stormstrike, to help time the WF Totem buff), but I really only use it in the "go nuts" portion of a fight - usually the low hp enrage portion where I'm trying to mana dump any way that I can.

For the record, my macro is:
/castsequence reset=6 Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem;

It's bound to a more obscure place on my keyboard, due to it's infrequent use. It's pretty fun, although it really means you spend pretty much the entire fight in the global cooldown. I usually mix Fire Nova Totem in there too, since it's about the best mana dump I have.

 

◊ Malan

Its been suggested a lot and dismissed by most as a waste of mana and mostly a "oh gee isn't this neat" sort of thing that isn't really useful. It puts you on GCD pretty much the entire time and requires most of your attention focused on that instead of on the fight or maybe helping top someone off that's about to die (although I guess macro'd its easier).

~Rocks, coming to a shaman near you in the next expansion~

 

Azaranth

Yar. I think that's why I tend to use it in the "Oh God, Leotheras is going to enrage in 20 seconds!" sort of situations

I wouldn't bother without a macro. It's pretty low maintenance as long as it's hotkeyed properly.

 

Negative

This post is a decent summary of metas and boot enchants. I tried finding the math as well that I thought was there but couldn't find it.

[Shaman] Itemizing Enhancement at 70

Basically the haste gem has the internal cooldown that makes it pretty terrible, while the change to Relentless making it affect yellow damage makes it by far the better choice.

 

Morelis

There's something that has been bugging me for a while. I always see people posting that you need a certain amount of hit rating to be effective, usually you see numbers around 20% or 200 hit rating. Or you see people concerned that they can't afford to lose hit rating. Is there really any truth to this though? I've been finding when using tools like pawn and lootzor that items lacking +hit often score very high. Since AEP ratings are designed to give a genuine value to items, are these ratings somehow broken? Or are players just clinging to the notion that hit is required out of habit?

My curiosity on this subject has led me to make myself a bit of a guinea pig. I've been taking items based solely on AEP style ratings for the last month or so, my hit rating has plummeted from around 220 to 111. My damage however feels like it's improved though I haven't been logging much data so I can't say with any certainty.

When Pater posted his sim one thing I checked right off was whether the relative value of hit rating changed depending on how much you had. I put in regular raid buffed values and lowered the +hit from gear to 0%, then I increased it by 5% and ran it again. I then did the same change again, going from 11% to 16%. The results came out as such:

0% -> 5% (9% -> 14%)
847.5 -> 875.8 = 28.3 DPS gained

11% -> 16% (20% -> 25%)
910.4 -> 940 = 29.6 DPS gained

Is there anything I'm missing? I'm trying find anything other than anecdotal evidence that a certain amount of hit rating is more beneficial than an equal amount of item budget spent on AP or crit stats. Certainly due to the non-linear cost you want items that have a balance of all DPS stats, but many pieces just aren't itemized that way. Should I be passing over items that score higher overall for ones that though scoring lower have a more even stat distribution?

 

• Nite_Moogle

Having high amounts of hit rating has the somewhat intangible benefit of guaranteeing lots of hits when you use SR, in addition to avoiding a situation where you are crit capped (not really a problem since 2.1). The magic number formula is purely in terms of DPS.

Gurgthock: the time taken to implement the 10 hugs achievement could have been used to make a new 5-man

 

Unaz

The rule of thumb I've been using recently (now that I'm actually starting to have a moderate amount of socketed gear available to me) is any piece where the bonus is useful to me from a dps standpoint (typically AP/or +hit bonuses) and I can reach the bonus using purely +hit/str/ap gems, I'll match colors.

Everything else +8 str.

That being said I was finding myself lacking due to getting pieces of dps gear with no +hit and trying to stay above certain minimums, so threw in a little extra +hit.

Regarding the whole paladin thing, we've had bad luck keeping active raiding paladins (horde guild). After having 4 people reroll as pallys with BC, 3 of them stopped playing due to one reason or another, and we're only now back up to 3 pallys. Typically running with one, 2 if we're lucky. So I usually end up asking for might and getting the opportunity for kings maybe 20% of the time.

 

Morelis

True, however sacrificing some of that hit for for strength would go some way to compensating you. Just some quick numbers and my math is fairly poor so I may make some mistakes.

Lets assume 2200 AP and take 100 hit rating and exchange it for 100 str. We would lose 6.33% hit and I guess 6.33% SR procs? Our overall mana gain would go down by 6.33% as well if I'm correct. With kings and UR that 100 str would gain us 242 AP? Which would gain us an additional 36.3 mana per SR proc pushing them from 330 to 366.3 an 11% gain. So you'd get 6.33 percent fewer procs bu tthe procs would return 11% more mana, assuming no errors in my math which is a pretty big assumption. Either way it should be a small change.

You're correct as well that with the greatly reduced glancing rate the crit cap even without as much +hit is still quite high.

 

• Disquette

if you lose 6.33% hit, you loose (white swings / total swings) SR procs.

Assume you have 10 white swings in 10 seconds (2.6 weapons, perma-hasted).

You would also have 2 stormstrike swings, and probably 4 windfury swings that are unaffected by your drop in hit (since they're maxed out by your talents hit-wise).

So, instead of losing 100% * 6.33% = 6.33% SR loss, you actually have
10/16 = 62.5% * 6.33% = 4.0% fewer SR procs.

----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

 

Ulix

I think haste rating does in fact have an impact on WF, certain ammounts of haste rating can actually have a negative impact on DPS output. I dont know if this has been brought up on these forums already, but if it hasnt here is link to a fairly informative discussion about it http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....sid=1&pageNo=1.

Edit: A different subject. We usually have a GoA-dps group, it consists of a druid, enhancement shammy (me!), rogue, hunter and a warrior. I'd like to see some number-crunching on dps output of such a group with GoA or WF, I'd think GoA wins in such a group. Also, in the OP's analysis of WF and Agi totem, the dps increase of the shaman itself with GoA isnt added, it should be! :p

 

• Aeolian

The bonus damage that the dps warrior in your group puts out using Windfury is much higher then the rest of the group combined using GoA. At least in my experience.

This was posted at the bottom of Compilation:

On why Windfury Totem is almost always the best totem to drop for any group that has a warrior DPSing in it, or pretty much any group that is not just hunters and druids:
http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...2&postcount=40
A Fury warrior will gain 200-300 DPS from WFT, eclipsing any gains that other group, in total, would gain from GoA being dropped instead. A Mortal Strike warrior will gain even more from the totem due to 2H mechanics.

 

◊ Malan

Nothing in that link struck me as the poster having any idea whatsoever what he's talking about.

~Rocks, coming to a shaman near you in the next expansion~

 

◊ Malan

The numbers are linked in my post. Why are people still coming and saying "I think GoA might be better...." when you can just try it out for yourself? Go do Magtheridon, use WF this week and GoA the next with the same setup. This isn't difficult to test.

~Rocks, coming to a shaman near you in the next expansion~

 

• Nite_Moogle

This is a stupid group if you're outside Kara and you shouldn't ever see it in 25 man raids. If your warrior is halfway competent he will see tremendous gains from Windfury that will likely eclipse the DPS gained by the rest of the group from GoA.

Gurgthock: the time taken to implement the 10 hugs achievement could have been used to make a new 5-man

 

• Disquette

I'd like to interject at this time that we have quite a few theories going on here, and I'm not sure how much they've actually been tested. This worries me.

If we didn't test theories, we wouldn't know about the Windfury offhand bonus being exactly what it is. (minor deviation from theory)

If we didn't test theories, we wouldn't have discovered the 36% chance to WF when dual wielding . (major deviation from theory)

If we didn't test theories, we wouldn't know that we're getting more flurried attacks than we should. (major deviation from theory)

Even blasted lands tests are fine for testing these out, but until they are tested, I'm not very comfortable with treating the results from any of this as being worth much.

For blasted lands tests, back into your numbers - run recap and find out what your actual crit rate and hit rate are, then plug those into your sim or formula. Find out how many auto-attack swings you had, compare it to what your model suggests. Find out how many windfury procs you had, compare that to the model. You wont have any dodge/block/parry/glancing, but the models and formulas need to be able to account for this situation as well, so you might as well start on the scenario that's easiest to test.

I'm not saying that any of the formulas or stat valuations are wrong, I'm saying that we currently don't seem to be confirming that they're right.

----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

 

Ulix

My guild is definately not the best out there, we've just started SSC 2 weeks ago, got 2 bossed down, and we are working on Tidewalker. But we seem to get the highest overal dps output with this GoA group thing. I dont see why anyone would deem this as a stupid group, 5% crit aura, battleshout, Ferocious Inspiration from the BM hunter (3% extra dmg), and totems + Unleashed Rage makes a damn fine dps group imo :p The druid also offtanks occasionally, and since their agro scales with dmg this group is also rather good for that, only thing he misses is an imp.

I understand perfectly well that the warrior's dps is WAY higher with WF, thats obvious. However, if the warrior uses stones on his weapons + GoA, the rogues uses poisons + GoA, and the other 3 dps get the benefits from GoA aswell... ah well, ill test it next Karathress, no holding back on that fight anyway. Sorry for asking

 

◊ Malan

Do you not have a 2nd rogue? Only 1 in the entire raid? You'd get much more benefit from dropping the hunter out of that group and replacing him with a rogue. The DPS gain from giving Battle Shout to rogues is tremendous. And then get rid of the GoA and give the warrior and 2 rogues WF and you'll see far more DPS gains. And no, Stones + Poisons + GoA are not better than WF.

~Rocks, coming to a shaman near you in the next expansion~

 

• Nite_Moogle

Unless you bring no other melees to your raid beyond one warrior and one rogue you can organize your groups better than this. As an enhancement Shaman you should have these people in your group in order of priority: DPS warriors, sword rogues, dagger rogues, LotP druids (LotP druids + BM hunters = happiness, so be nice and share them). If you use warriors for offtanks, having them in your group will allow them to build threat more easily with WFT and the extra AP, but they are usually better in the MT group for Imp/Tree buffs.

Having a hunter in the group for the BM bonus is not nearly worth the opportunity cost of having an additional melee gain the benefits of WFT. This is one of the most common mistakes that people make in organizing groups. Ferocious Inspiration is a flat 3% bonus to any sort of damage and it makes Hunters useful in any damage-dealing group, whereas the difference between GoA and WF for warriors and rogues is tremendous by the time you are in SSC. If you have a hunter in a mage group FI is roughly as effective as it is to a melee group, but that hunter will get far less benefit from shaman totems than a melee class would. If you have a rogue in the mage group when the hunter is in your group, you are crippling that rogue's DPS (no totems, no battle shout) and the hunter is not providing any real additional benefit (not affected by battle shout, WF does nothing, only receives half benefit from GoA/SoE). If you can provide WFT to four other melee classes you should absolutely be doing it, because nothing else will provide them with as big of a benefit as what you will.

Gurgthock: the time taken to implement the 10 hugs achievement could have been used to make a new 5-man