Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 301

Lujaar · 02/28/08, 4:23 PM

I'm not sure how I feel about the SR change. On a fight where you're in no danger of getting forced out of melee it's a nerf. It's 15 fewer seconds of free mana and it makes your returns more random. A very good result will be wasted - you'll be topped off and unable to spend mana fast enough - but a very bad result will suck just as much as ever. On the other hand, if you sync your SR with Bloodlust Brooch/Zerker's Call you'll get better results now - 100% trinket uptime unstead of 66% - and it'll be easier to get a full SR off on add fights or bosses that force you out of melee. It's easier to find a 15-second window than a 30-second one.

EDIT: Shamanistic Rage seems to still be returning 15% AP right now, not the 30% listed in the tooltip. Hopefully this isn't intended.

Krom[Fenris] · 02/28/08, 4:26 PM

Originally Posted by Vernichter

Seidule, this post from earlier in the thread gives an approximate break-down of the newly introduced Sunwell gear. Note that it was made before the updates to the T6 wrists, boots, and belt. I don't see any way for enchanting to beat out leatherworking in terms of end-game return. [Carapace of Sun and Shadow] is very close to best in slot, and [Gloves of Immortal Dusk] are by far the best in slot. Add the benefit of drums and leatherworking should be a clear best profession for the Sunwell.

The gloves are BoE so whether you're a leatherworker or not is a bit of a non-issue. That plus the BP not being the best (tho damned close) maintains the argument of not getting a significant benefit for being a leatherworker other than the drums.

Illundai · 02/28/08, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

There aren't many fights that require a healing debuff though, and most that do can also be interrupted. Yah you can get 5 seconds of reduced healing on Najentus, maybe some lowered healing on Anetheron. That's about it for T6 content really.

Not to nitpick, but the most important one is probably Illidan :P.

About Shamanistic Rage, mine is also still only returning 15% rather than 30%. I'm assuming its a bug.

Mengus · 02/28/08, 5:23 PM

From a PvE perspective, I actually wish they would have given the MS effect to ROCKBITER. I mean, FT has viabilty, and is still used... Who uses Rockbiter anymore?

Though, Ele Shaman will use FT as it stands on PTR, no brainer... But I think it would have been interesting to give Rockbiter some viabilty... There's also the resist factor with FT to consider, though that's marginal imo.

• Shinanigans · 02/28/08, 6:14 PM

Alright, I have a question that has been bothering me since Executioner enchant came out with 2.3.

When I looking to be recruited by a new guild, both of their enhance shamans stated that dual Mongoose is inferior now, compared to Ex/Mon. Is there claim unfounded?

I am very curious as to where they are getting their information.

Thanks.

Seidule · 02/28/08, 6:16 PM

Originally Posted by Shinanigans

Alright, I have a question that has been bothering me since Executioner enchant came out with 2.3.

When I looking to be recruited by a new guild, both of their enhance shamans stated that dual Mongoose is inferior now, compared to Ex/Mon. Is there claim unfounded?

I am very curious as to where they are getting their information.

Thanks.

Repeated models based on my profile (clicky to the left) show a 10 dps improvement with executioner in the offhand versus Mongoose. Just sayin'.

Toots Hepcat · 02/28/08, 6:40 PM

Has anybody on the PTR yet tried to macro the individual totem recall when twisting? Interested in the mana savings numbers.

Does anybody who twists on the PTR see an increase in shock damage? With 1s totem drops, a WFT/GoA/Shock/SS/Shock rotation may be possible.

Toots Hepcat · 02/28/08, 6:47 PM

Originally Posted by Shinanigans

When I looking to be recruited by a new guild, both of their enhance shamans stated that dual Mongoose is inferior now, compared to Ex/Mon. Is there claim unfounded?

No. It's just oversimplified. Exec/Mongoose CAN be better than Mongoose/Mongoose, if you've got the gear to make Executioner worth while (that is to say, a good deal of armor pen & AP and a high enough crit rating that an extra 4.8% crit now and then isn't a big deal). Your raid debuffs are important, too...if you're not getting CoR, Faerie Fire and a full stack of sunders, Exec won't be as good.

For most shaman not at T6, Mongoose/Mongoose is slightly better.

I have Exec/Mongoose; I picked it up the first week ZA was out. It was expensive and I won't be replacing it -- Mongoose/Mongoose isn't that much better (I sim about a 3 dps difference). When I upgrade Dragonmaw (which will be tonight if the Vortexes drop), I will be putting Mongoose on it.

Aksing · 02/28/08, 6:50 PM

This is interesting as i was just about to make a post about this.

I've noticed recently that with Double Mongoose Procs, Flurry, and a rogue popping Drums of Battle, or me using Bloodlust my weapon speed drops perilously close to 1.5.

If i use BL whilst the drums are up it goes below 1.5 So atm i am waiting for the drums to run out before using BL. I never use my Haste pots anymore, and am wondering whether to either get Executioner enchanted in the offhand, even though i don't have all that much armour penetration, and whether to use Insane Strengths instead of Haste Pots, as like i said i'm very close to dropping below 1.5 weapon speed in my offhand (Not a prob for Main as it's Syphon with 2.8 speed)

Toots Hepcat · 02/28/08, 7:03 PM

Again, even if a plateau at 1.5s wasn't a myth (which it is), you won't spend enough time there to notice.

As a troll with Dragonmaw, the Abacus, haste pots, drums, etc etc, I can get my weapon speed down to 1s or faster. End result? Lots of DPS.

Aksing · 02/28/08, 8:02 PM

I must've misunderstood then.

I was under the impression that reducing your weapon speed past 1.5 resulted in a net loss of dps

Weem · 02/28/08, 8:07 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

Has anybody on the PTR yet tried to macro the individual totem recall when twisting? Interested in the mana savings numbers.

Does anybody who twists on the PTR see an increase in shock damage? With 1s totem drops, a WFT/GoA/Shock/SS/Shock rotation may be possible.

I have it built into my twisting macro. I can't say I've noticed the extra mana (our pallies have been pretty good with JoW) or an increase in shock damage. I'll try and pay attention tonight.

◊ Shalas · 02/28/08, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Aksing

I must've misunderstood then.

I was under the impression that reducing your weapon speed past 1.5 resulted in a net loss of dps

There is a very small range where your dps will theoretically drop. Even if you go out of your way to hit that range, it's very hard to spend a nontrivial amount of time in it, so it hasn't been proven that the dps drop actually exists. It's really not worth worrying about.

Malan · 02/28/08, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by drats

Right now you can spam WS and gain more than 50mp5 from it, due to the fact that it gives mana back right when it's cast. I suspect this is not 'working as intended' and will be fixed at some point in the future.

Uh, that's probably your spirit regen kicking in.

vorda · 02/28/08, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by drats

Right now you can spam WS and gain more than 50mp5 from it, due to the fact that it gives mana back right when it's cast. I suspect this is not 'working as intended' and will be fixed at some point in the future.

I remember this being tested in the resto topic and proven false.

Test was like this: empty mana bar and measure time needed to regen to full with just WS casted once. Then do the same with spamming WS. Both scenarios needed the same time to get the mana bar filled again.

Kween · 02/29/08, 3:39 AM

"Enhacement Shaman have four sources of damage:

* Windfury, a weapon imbue that gives the shaman a 20% proc of two instant attacks with a substantial AP bonus
* Stormstrike, a 10s cooldown instant attack with both weapons
* Elemental Shocks, shared cooldown instant elemental damage offering stealth prevention, snaring or interruption
* Fire Totems, pulsed direct or AoE fire damage"

I am concerned about the fire totems. They are used to help overall damage but does it count as the actual Shaman dps? Or is it just another damaging agent? I guess I never really built up my fire totems..I think searing totem does what? 40 damage capped? Always seemed a bit weak to me. Any help is greatly appreciated. Oh and very nice work everyone who was involved in this. Helps me bunches.

goddi23a · 02/29/08, 4:07 AM

Well, It depends on the tool you use to measure the dps if fire Totems are added to your dps.

But they do some nice dmg, even if you havent spec them through elemental talents.

Some wws Data, MH Azalgor trash waves:

Ability	             Hits  	Avg
Magma Totem          1158       133
Searing  	     210	169
Fire Nova 	     353	767

Don't forget the spelldmg you gain through MentalQ. !
( And with S.Rage you should have enough mana to set an Nova Totem on nearly every CD. )

P.S.Edit:
But what else can you do with the fire totem slot; FT is useless if WF totem is up ( witch is in most cases ) and FrostR. only make sense in a few encounters.

Kween · 02/29/08, 4:13 AM

Ah looks pretty good. Yeah I will usually drop down Magma but Fire Nova is way expensive and Searing..I dunno I may have to pick it up.

Thanks.

Mindrila · 02/29/08, 4:15 AM

My searing totem does about 50-75 DPS depending on actual attackpower. So its another 5% DPS which is easy to get. If you are using Recount as damagemeter, your totems won't show up because it's not save tracking them with the current combatlog. The author tries to get it to work with 2.4 when the new combatlog allows better tracking.

Ragzhi · 02/29/08, 4:16 AM

Originally Posted by Kween

"Enhacement Shaman have four sources of damage:

* Windfury, a weapon imbue that gives the shaman a 20% proc of two instant attacks with a substantial AP bonus
* Stormstrike, a 10s cooldown instant attack with both weapons
* Elemental Shocks, shared cooldown instant elemental damage offering stealth prevention, snaring or interruption
* Fire Totems, pulsed direct or AoE fire damage"

I am concerned about the fire totems. They are used to help overall damage but does it count as the actual Shaman dps? Or is it just another damaging agent? I guess I never really built up my fire totems..I think searing totem does what? 40 damage capped? Always seemed a bit weak to me. Any help is greatly appreciated. Oh and very nice work everyone who was involved in this. Helps me bunches.

Well, it depends on who you ask, if you just look at the damage meters, it wont say that it's you're damage since it can't seperate your totem from any other shaman's totem. But if you hadn't been there dropping that totem, there wouldn't be some 40 dps on the boss for almost no effort.

So no, it wont show (unless someone know that you're the only one using searing totem & merging it to you on WWS) but it's still you're damage.

[E] Beaten.

Grekk · 02/29/08, 5:07 AM

This is interesting as i was just about to make a post about this.

I've noticed recently that with Double Mongoose Procs, Flurry, and a rogue popping Drums of Battle, or me using Bloodlust my weapon speed drops perilously close to 1.5.

If i use BL whilst the drums are up it goes below 1.5 So atm i am waiting for the drums to run out before using BL. I never use my Haste pots anymore, and am wondering whether to either get Executioner enchanted in the offhand, even though i don't have all that much armour penetration, and whether to use Insane Strengths instead of Haste Pots, as like i said i'm very close to dropping below 1.5 weapon speed in my offhand (Not a prob for Main as it's Syphon with 2.8 speed)

I think there is some misunderstanding here.
Haste potions will ALWAYS increase you dps, and they will do even more so when you are on BL, as will drums.

Again, even if a plateau at 1.5s wasn't a myth (which it is), you won't spend enough time there to notice.

this is EJ, it's not really important if you NOTICE an increase, just whether it is there.

To build my post around drums and haste potions probably wasn't a good idea, so i will try a different approach.

Image you were to face Brutallus (6 minute fight) and you had to choose which bracers to wear.
Now imagine without bracers you had enough passive haste (around 15% i think) that your Mainhand will be just above 1.5 under the following conditions:

- you have Flurry
- you have BL/Hero up

Now let us assume I were to choose between the following two items:
[Master Assassin Wristwraps]
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]

using my stat weights: Loot Rank

leads me to the conclusion, that [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] should be better by 5.24 AEP

In my last post I calculated that I would loose 22 dps for the duration of time, that I spend below 1.5.
Now let's see what happens if I choose [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes].

- I gain 142.25 AEP which should be around 49.7 DPS for the whole duration of the fight
- I loose 22 dps for 40s/360s = 11% of the fight which equals a loss of 2.44 DPS over the whole fight

We see that considering the loss we actually only gain 47.26 DPS which is 135.33 AEP which is LESS than we gain from
[Master Assassin Wristwraps] (137.01 AEP).

Tristan · 02/29/08, 7:11 AM

Originally Posted by Mindrila

Neck
+48 Stamina
+22 Hitrating
+21 weapon expertise

The Enhancer value is just the hitrating (22*1.65=36.3)

So Enhancer is bugged and has to be fixed for correct evaluation of weapon expertise.

Enhancer has no logic to get get bonuses from items in it, instead it uses ItemBonusLib (on of the many ace libraries) for that. Possibly it doesn't capture the expertise if you're using a locale other then enUS or you have no value assigned to expertise? Either way I can't reproduce the error, both Enhancer and EquivalencePoints pick up the expertise for me:

(Ignore the gem just chugged an old gem I had lying around untill I get a resil gem)

Mindrila · 02/29/08, 7:42 AM

Yes I'm using deDE as locale.

Thanks for the hint, I'll go check the ItemBonusLib.

Edit:
Ok I've changed my ItemBonusLib so that weapon expertise is properly recognized for deDE. Now it works fine. Thank you.

Aksing · 02/29/08, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Grekk

We see that considering the loss we actually only gain 47.26 DPS which is 135.33 AEP which is LESS than we gain from
[Master Assassin Wristwraps] (137.01 AEP).

So, essentially what you're saying is I shouldn't worry about dropping below 1.5 if it is via the useage of Haste Pots, BL, drums, or mongoose procs, but that i shouldn't take haste gear (which i don't anyway).

I ran Yo!'s sim for 5000 hours with my stats and with my gear the EP values came back as haste being worth 1.96 and hit and crit at 1.97 with ofc strength at 2.2 and expertise being 3.53 or something.

I know what i'm aiming for in Sunwell, and the new T6 pieces do have some haste rating on them. According to Yo!'s the haste rating is worth alot of EP atm, but as you just mentioned actually some pieces with haste can result in a loss of dps. So should a trade off be made? If i get the T6 pieces with haste on for example, should i lose some haste elsewhere by saying for example losing a mongoose for an executioner, to minimise the time spent at under 1.5 speed?

Seidule · 02/29/08, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Weem

I have it built into my twisting macro. I can't say I've noticed the extra mana (our pallies have been pretty good with JoW) or an increase in shock damage. I'll try and pay attention tonight.

Is anybody willing to share their Enh macros with the group?

I use a basic twisting/stormstrike cycle macro for my main button smash, a totem cycle macro to drop earth/fire/water, and a shock cycle macro to go between ES and FS. I'd like to know if anyone has something more advanced that:

- Uses drums when they are up
- Uses Haste pot when it is up
- Makes twisting more efficient than just cycling WF,GoA,SS.

Thanks!