Malan

How many posts does it take of people saying stop worrying about the haste effect before you start reading them?

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Toots Hepcat

No, what we're all saying -- what we've ALWAYS been saying -- is use the simulator, know your EP values and gear accordingly. The simulator will test your hast pots, BL, drums, mongoose, Troll berzerking, Dragonstrike, passive haste, etc etc, and give passive hast a value based on how much additional DPS it brings to the table.

You shouldn't worry about 1.5s because it MEANS NOTHING. And if it did mean something, the simulator would discover it and adjust your EP accordingly. Trust the simulator, it's a decent analyst and good at math.

 

Experiment

Quoted from the 1st post just in case...

It is no longer believed that the 1.5 to 1.4 hasted speed will actually cause any decrease in DPS - you should notice an overall increase.

---

That being said, since it's been noted that so many of the new items from the 2.4 patch will give Expertise, does it have a point at which it stops being useful? I would assume since Expertise and hit rating impact dodge reduction...if I'm following this right...that it would stop being useful right around the same point as +hit? Unless I'm constantly standing in front of the Mob during a raid of course.

I'm sorry, but of all the sections in the 1st post, the Expertise section is the most confusing. If someone has another way to explain it then that would be helpful. It might just be a lack of exposure on my end. I did research on other forums and WoWWiki and such, and came up with Expertise of 103 from the non Human or Orc non talented listing on the Roguecraft 101 thread...not rating, just Expertise.

This is from the roguecraft 101 thread...
The purpose of listing the caps here is so that you do not accidentally overshoot either cap by equipping too much hit rating or expertise rating. Always remember that any hit rating or expertise rating beyond the cap will have zero positive effect on your DPS.


What sort of cap would we aim not to overshoot as Shamans? If this was mentioned in the last 302 pages then I missed it. At a certain point that stat can't be weighed as high as it starts out, right?...

Sorry for the confusion...

 

Gehenna

Like you say, roguecraft says not to get more than 103.

That should make a boss encounter unable to dodge you.

So i would say get 103...

 

Malan

It stops being useful at the point where you cap your anti-dodge, ~5-6% against a boss.
(Was that really so hard to figure out?)

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Experiment

Thank you. I wanted to make sure the 103 or 5-6% usefullness limit posted there applied to us as well. Should that be included in the main post since it will become more of a concern with this patch?

 

Toots Hepcat

If I'm not mistaken, 5.6% is the max dodge of l73 mobs. Because expertise is calculated in .25% chunks, after 5.75% dodge reduction you'll see NO benefit from expertise. 5.75% * (.25% dodge reduction/Experise) = 23 Expertise * (3.96 ER / Expertise) = 91 Expertise Rating.

Where the heck did they get 103? That would be a dodge of 6.5%. One of us is dyslexic (probably me).

In PvP, maybe stacking more will help against evading rogues and prot warriors. But not as much as good ole' AP, I imagine.

 

Experiment

....they say 6.5%

Your base chance to be dodged by a raid boss with any attack is thought to be 6.5%. For each 3.94 expertise rating you equip, you gain 1 expertise, reducing your chance to be dodged by 0.25% (thus it takes exactly 15.77 expertise rating to reduce your chance to be dodged by 1%). Thus, we can calculate expertise caps for various combinations of talents and racial abilities:

0/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 103



WoWWiki states 5.6% according to the below...

A Boss-mobs parry is increased by 0.04 for every point of weapon skill it has over your level based defense, and its dodge is increased by 0.04 for every point of level based defense it has over your level based defense. At level 70 you have 350 level based defense. At level 73 a Boss-mob has 365 level based Defense and Weapon Skill, giving it 0.04*15 additional parry and dodge %. Meaning it gains 0.6% to Dodge and Parry. Ontop of it's base 5% parry, this gives a total of 5.6%. To negate 5.6% dodge and parry 23 points of expertise (or 89.7 points of expertise rating) are needed.



I'm going to go with the 5.6, and they're Dyslexic, not you.

 

Toots Hepcat

I've always thought that about rogues.

However, don't put too much trust in Wowwiki -- they claim you need 23 Expertise, that it's 3.94 ER per Expertise, and 89.7 ER to attain it. 23*3.94 is 90.62, not 89.7.

 

Hedin

Made the addon that changes your weapons 1.5 seconds before SS CD ends to 2hand and when SS CD starts - back to DW. Going to try it today in raid - wish me luck :-)

WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.

 

Malan

... what? Why in the hell would you do that? DW provides more SS damage. Go read the Enhancement pvp thread.
Its also going to reset your swing timer twice.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Hedin

Yep, not as good as in PvP but if you change only totems you will be getting stronger WFs from SS with [Totem of the Astral Winds] and some AP from shocks with [Stonebreaker's Totem] and will not get reset of swing timer...
BTW it will force you not to Shock befor 1.5 of SS CD end...

WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.

 

rava

So you reset your swing timer and lose out on at least 2 white hits and reset your swing timer each time you equip a different totem all for the sake of a chance at bigger numbers?

Full price for gum!? That dog won't hunt, Monsignor.

 

Hedin

Why should you get reset of swing timer if you don't change weapons? As far as I see changing totems don't reset it or am I wrong?

WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.

 

◊ Shalas

Changing the item equipped in your ranged weapon slot counts as changing a weapon, which is why you can do it at all.

 

Malan

But you didn't say that you were changing totems, you said you were changing from DW to 2H, which is what I said was silly.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

drats

[e] Beaten

 

Hedin

/cry
Totem relics do reset swing timer... I was so close :-(

WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.

 

Rapparee

I hate being super lazy... but I'm not well versed in the losses these other classes would endure in the following situation.

Let's say you're a raid leader and are interested in keeping a 50% healing debuff on that tricky demon, Anetheron.

As near as I can tell, a generic raid leader has 4 choices:
warrior using mortal strike
rogue using wound poison
hunter using aimed shot
shaman using flame tongue

Which of these when tasked with keeping the healing debuff active, reduces the overall raid damage the least?

Some assumptions to make:
1. Each one is in an optimized group for them to otherwise do maximum dps.
2. None of them suck, die often, have crappy gear. They're all perfect raiders, top of the line choices.

My gut feeling is that the hunter applying the debuff will have the least impact to the raid

choices you can't use...
some resto shaman drops flametongue totem + flametongue weapon and that shaman+ 3 other healers in the group allow random auto-attacks to apply the debuff.
The shaman in the tank group drops flametongue and the tank keeps the debuff up all the time. ( to me this is the obvious choice to take, but that's not a very challenging task for you folks to theorize about).

 

Kalince

Given I am not an expert on warrior pve mechanics but I would think MS is never not on cooldown for them to do their best damage. How is it any choice but the MS warrior?

 

• Chicken

I'd say that's very simple logic you can apply there.

If you have a Warrior with MS, that's the first choice. Using Mortal Strike is part of their standard DPS cycle, so there's no oppurtunity cost for them to keep it up.
Second option would be a rogue using wound poison instead of deadly poison.
Third option would probably be an enhancement shaman off-handing Flametongue.
Fourth option would be aimed shot; I'm pretty sure using Aimed Shot with any regularity absolutely kills hunter DPS.

Also remember that Windfury would still be a better threat option for a Warrior Tank, so if you have a fight where one really needs all the threat he can get and a mob heals, it might not always be the best choice. Such problems don't exist for Feral Druids (Because they don't benefit from weapon enchants) or Prot Paladins (Because they get a better threat upgrade from Wrath of Air).

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Rapparee

For the warrior, I had assumed it was a fury warrior who is forced to run as Arms to provide the debuff. Doesn't a T6 fury warrior outperform arms by some margin?

 

Mox

Best choice if you want the debuff applied with zero effort. Some tanks actually prefer the use of GoA, I know that our MT has never had a issue with threat without WF. But this isn't a option if you happen to have a DPS warrior, or spare rogue in the MT group (Having a DPS warrior in MT group happens alot in my experience).

 

• Chicken

While a tier 6 Fury Warrior does outdamage an Arms warrior, it's commonly accepted that the extra damage for the rest of the raid provided by Blood Frenzy equals or comes close to equaling the difference between the two.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Paradox

So i've got offset peices and I have 4 peice T6, Helm/Shoulder/Glove/Legs. Offset is Forest Prowler, Bow-Stitched, Hidden-Predator, and Grips of Damnation.

I put the numbers in the sim, ran it for 20,000 hours with offset peices and I got a DPS of 1384, I swapped my gear over and changed all the stats, accounting for gems and added the 4-peice T6 bonus on in the sim, ran that for 20,000 hours and I got a DPS of 1437 which I was very suprised by, as, using my EP weights gained from the sim, every peice of non-set gear beats the T6. Buffs page was left as default and trinkets are Bloodlust Brooch / Ashtongue. Wait 3 sec to SS (another thing here, does this take into consideration the T6 4-peice?)

Could the T6 4-peice be pushing the DPS up that high? Should I actually ignore my EP weights and just go with the T6?

I re-ran the sim multiple times and the DPS didn't fluctuate at all, not a single point up or down.
Also tried changing the time down to 500 hours and so on, similar results not much fluctuation.l

Very confused!