Yo!

EP is based around ap which is bound directly to weapon dps, both are independent from weapon speed.
14/1.1 ap (1.1 comes from Unleashed Rage) is same as having raw dps on both weapons increased by 1. It goes other way around, regardless of weapon speed: EP value of mainhand dps + EP value of offhand DPS = 14/1.1
What can change is their proportion (8/4.73 instead of 9.03/3.7 for example).
The important parameter is DPS value per 1 EP (total DPS that you perform, not raw DPS) ,
One may say that slow weapons provide better EP to DPS conversion.

Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo

 

Ilmatar

Toots: I can link you, if need be, but what I did was go through the WWS logs for raids for a few weeks and browse my procs. The order in the combat log is Hit, Gain, always. If you hit, proc hourglass, and proc windfury, it will go: Hit, Gain (Hourglass), Gain (Windfury), Hit-Hit. The Windfury proc (Hit-Hit) will be made with the benifit of the Hourglass.

I haven't seen something like this:
Hit
Windfury
Proc
Windfury

But I'm not positive that it can't happen.

 

Emily

Dumb question perhaps - what do T, t D and A represent?

 

Season

Yes i know this has probally already been said..

But for you shammys out there,,,


How do you dps,, SS than earth/flame? and do you keep searing totems down all time? just wondering.

Thanks

 

Rapparee

Let D be your dps without a boot enchant. For the run speed to provide more benefit, we need:
(D+12A)(T-t) < (D+6A)(T-t/1.08)
which simplifies to
T < [(1-k)D + (2-k)6A]t/(6A)
where k = 1/1.08. For example, gives A = .16286, and so we have
T < (.07581D + 1.074) t
Using some actual data, a shaman that does betwen 900 and 1000 dps will have T < 76.88t
For 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds..

Sorry, I didn't quote this very well.

"Let D be your dps without a boot enchant."
D = dps without a boot enchant

The comparison is agility enchant vs. run speed + agility enchant. The formulas use D+12A vs. D+6A.
A = dps that one agility would yield.

T and t are both units of time. T is the overall time, and little t is time spent running not doing dps. I figured this out by noticing that t was being divided by the bonus in run speed. Therefore t is time spent running, unable to DPS at all, which is why it represent a loss of dps.


Season, you will be banned from these forums if you post that you are refusing to use the search function. Your first statement clearly shows you refused to use it.

Use the search function with words like DPS cycle, DPS routine.
Alternatively you could rephrase your question to something more meaningful, like, "I currently use WF on both weapons, autoattack a creature, then stormstrike and earth shock whenever the cooldown is up. Is this the correct way for me to maximize my damage? I've read the first post and it does not mention what sort of damage routine I should be following."


p.s. Malan or Yo!, I know this sounds childish, but could you post how you think a shaman should be attacking?
Yo!, your simulator is being touted as the defacto standard for determining AEP, but we don't know how it determines what attacks it is using. Do you consider that searing totem is down before the pull and that it uses up a GCD every 60seconds? Does the code look for an open spot in the GCDs when the searing totem has less than 5seconds left? If we don't select wait on the WF 3sec. cooldown, does your sim choose stormstrike over shock if both cooldowns finish at the same time? Little questions like this could make sure we the users are doing the actions required to hit that potential dps.

 

• Toots Hepcat

To my knowledge, Yo's sim does not simulate the GCD on SS, shocks or totem drops. It also does not simulate lag. This is why you need to specify you shocks per 2 minutes.

 

Season

yes i know Yo! but it did not count totems or any of that stuff... i did the search tool.. all it said was flame shock with its DoT, but i mean some trash fights you kill the mob in like 5 seconds,, so why use flame? if the dot will not matter at all.

Totems wont plug into yo!

i was wondering like during a boss fight,, Searing over fire nova?

anyway,, ppl dont have to answer if they dont want. IDC it was just a question.. just when you search and no answer pops up shouldnt i post? lol

 

Daler

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

By the way, I found that post by searching for DPS sequence (no quotation marks). It was the third entry down.

Perhaps putting some thought and effort into your search would make your searches more helpful.

 

Yo!

Limited GCD support is implemented - SS is given higher priority if they both come out of cooldown at the same time with shock. It is not trying to fit totem GCDs. There are uncovered possible collisions that may happen in game when, for example, someone chooses to "wait 3 sec" and SS comes out of cooldown 2 sec before WF cooldown ends and you have to think ahead if you want to SS now and shock 1.5 seconds later or delay SS and miss shock entirely because the deadline for totem-refreshing is 1 sec after WF cooldown's end.. .
You have an option to account for such things as well as for your reaction time in sim with adjusting "number of shocks per 2 minutes" to what you actually perform in-game. Sim assumes that all of your totems are 100% time up from the start - if you selected agi and 24 shocks per 2 minutes sim takes no interest if you are twisting or not, it performs shocks on regular intervals (determined by "shocks per 2 minutes" parameter) as well as stormstriking (every 10/9 seconds). First SS is performed on 0 sec timeline (no "warm-up tank-building-agro period" that is not significant for the duration of the fight anyway), first shock on 1.5.
All procs are modeled as being triggered after the damage from the strike is calculated.

"How a shaman should be attacking?" is not easy.
One may choose to totem-twist, burn all available GCDs while constantly keeping close eye on WF cooldowns and instantly making decisions what ability to delay if they overlap, refresh ST and EoS totems beforehand in case their refresh time may overlap with another ability, plan lesser cooldowns around bigger ones such as bloodlust (easy example - activate 15-seconds-long ap-increasing trinket so that it covers 2 stormstrikes). That is not easy really and can be very frustrating.. Totem-twisting and SS-delay were invented out of boredom but combined with regular routine and encounter specials became time+nerve - consuming. Not funny thing is that you further try to increase your dps twisting fire nova/ST
Another shaman may choose to go with macros based around 10 seconds’ intervals, pressing just 2 keys for the duration of the fight, fitting big cooldowns sometimes.
DPS difference between the 2 will be 10% at most (likely <5%) because we are very gear-dependant class with relatively small part of dps being player-controlled. Biggest decision to be made is "to twist or not to twist". Totem twisting may be considered something that indicates hardcore-pve shaman and may appear as entry requirement for some guilds. High gear-dependence also results in that planning gear and theorycrafting before the fight can be rewarding more than to other classes.

Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo

 

Jarlaxle

Hey guys, I need help with Yo! Simulator.

I am running some 2000hour simulations and I am not sure if the EP results are right.

Most of them seem okay, but the armor penetration seems really low.

Mystats:
AP - 1446.3 (added in bloodlust brooch)
Crit - 30.77%
Hit% - 15.2 (9% from talents and 95 rating)
329 - Armor Ignore
s1 Axes (orc)
335 STR
229 AGI

I am coming up with the following EP Weights
AP = 1
Crit Rating = 1.81
Hit Rating = 1.5
Armor Penetration = .28 ??
STR = 2.2
AGI - 1.76
Expertise = 3

Does armor pierce seem right to you guys? I would have expected higher with the amount I am carrying right now.

 

Raut

Level (Item - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft)

Armor Pen is worth 0.15 in the item budget compared to str's 1 and AP's 0.5. It makes sense.

Edit: Which means that one ArPen rating is very cheap compared to str. You need lots of it to modify your DPS.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

◊ Wraithlin

On a related note: Dont twist if you are put in the tank gorup to drop WFT.
On one of my trial raids I was put in the tank group on VR o help with threat. Halfway through the run I was moved out the group for dropping GoA (I was twisting). I explained to the raid leader, but to those 3/4 tanks I looked like an idiot becuase of their ignorance of our mechanics.

It sounds like oyu might be in similar company.

[e]
Question I have wanted to ask for a while.
How close should a totem-twister aim to get to their theoretical DPS from Yo's sim ?
Last Teron I posted 1070 DPS twisting for the full duration, and the sim posts my dps as being 1260 with the gear/buffs I recieved. Is this a reasonable performance or am I not hitting my potential, it would be nice to see how close others are managing to get to their "ideal".

Brutallus : http://files.filefront.com/Brutallus.../fileinfo.html
Eredar Twins : http://files.filefront.com/Twinswmv/.../fileinfo.html

 

Jarlaxle

Ahh I would have assume with the amount I have right now, it would be valued more. Guess not.

Executioner would result in a loss of DPS according to Yo!

Mongoose it is (still)

 

saintstryfe

that is what I found, even on a lower end of things.

I have two [Gladiator's Cleaver], one enchanted EXE and one with Mongoose. I kept Mongoose in my main while EXE in the off. Not bad DPS, but when I got [Fury] I accidently forgot to buy the STR potions, so I had it enchanted Mongoose as well. My DPS skyrocketed. Now, DPS and stat wise, the [Gladiator's Cleaver] is (very slightly) superior, so I have to think Mongoose was the reason my overall DPS went up.

(So why use Fury? Crit. I'm not into T5 content and yet I've got 29.79% crit unbuffed. and I still need epic rings.)

 

faight

Hey guys, a quick question:

Is there any place we can find a listinging of "Recommended" stats for each raid tier? I got my shaman to 70 a few months ago, but due to moving/new job/etc I missed a lot of raids and chances to gear up. However, my current guild is starting to do ZA and is implementing a "gear check" of sorts. I know this isn't as bit as running end-game raids, but it's new to us as we're a casual guild. Unfortunately for me, I'm rather far behind at the moment, and I've been trying to catch up. I'd rather not be a burden on DPS despite supplying WF and all the other goodies we have, and I have learned how to twist and do it constantly in our Kara runs. I never fall off the DPS charts completely, but I'm not tearing them apart either. I do read up on the strats for raids before we run them, which leaves me knowledgeable about the encounters, so I'm not sitting there saying "WHAT HAPPENS WHEN HE DOES THAT THING WHERE OUR HP GOES TO 1?" during Prince or anything, I'm just undergeared.

So I guess my big question is: What sort of AP/crit/etc do you need for the dungeons as you progress? I know to aim for 30% crit, but other than that I am lost. A list would be nice. I swear I saw one in this thread before, but after searching it for a while I decided I would ask, and maybe there are other up and coming shaman who have the same question and could benefit from this information as well.

Basically I guess a list like this:

Kara Minimums
AP: 1000
Crit: 20%
Haste: X%
Armor Pierce: X
HP: (if there is an HP check)
Weapon Level: (S1, S2, S3, crafted epics, etc)

Etcetera. I don't know if I'm missing stats, and I just sort of put stuff in at random. I think I was told I needed at least 1000 AP to do decent in Kara, but I can't remember who told me.

Thank you in advance.

 

◊ Rob

No, that is a stupid idea because it is going to vary with every guild and on every run. You won't "need" any level of gear in SSC if everyone else is wearing T6; on the other hand, you'll "need" to be wearing full T6-equivalents if you're shooting for a 4-chest run in ZA and most of the other people are in T5. If you want to see what kind of stats you "should" have, then use a character planner and equip the highest value items from each tier of gear (use LootRank with T4/5/6 EP values and pick the proper gear level (Heroic, T4 instances/kara, T5 instances/ZA, from the dropdown).

 

• Sebudai

On Teron you can definitely exceed the dps number from the simulator(on average), due to things like Bloodlust and the short duration of the encounter. Teron is weird though. The encounter is so short that luck can be a large factor. I'll have attempts in which I make plenty of mistakes and still break 2k+ dps, or other attempts in which I play nearly perfectly, receive multiple Bloodlusts and a permanent drum rotation, and only finish at like 1600 dps. Anyway, on average I would guess that my actual dps on Teron exceeds that of the simulator.

 

Tristan

Didn't see this before and actually never tried it on PTR neither (I mostly stand still in deserted places anyway): WoW Forums -> [Bug] ? Totemic Recall still has GCD Post #87

Going far out of range of totems trigger DestroyTotem() or at least destroys them with mana gain, anyone here that can verify it? Gonna pop on to PTR again tonight when I get back from work and test it.

Enhancer -Ace2- (Totem Timers, configurable AEP, Enhancement Itemization Points, GemPicker and more)
RaidSpy -Ace2- (Prints out the checks done by raid officers in chatframe)

 

Rhaegal

I really try to stay away from hard minimums, with a few exceptions. For the most part, if you know how to gear yourself, you'll be in the best gear you can conceivably be in given the drops that you've been lucky (or unlucky, as the case may be) enough to have. The only time minimums come in handy are for what consumables you use. For example, you want to be at >= 30% crit raid buffed at all times (i.e., not including mongoose procs), to keep UR up for your group and Flurry up for yourself. If you find that you aren't, consider using [Elixir of Major Agility] over [Flask of Relentless Assault]. They're very similar in EP, but if you're learning content, you'll burn through a lot of elixirs. Worth it, though, if your crit is hurting.

Don't worry about haste - if you happen across a piece here and there, like [Cloak of Fiends], great, but in general it's not available on Kara/heroic gear. It's a nice stat, but not a required stat--even at a T6 level. Same with armor pen.

It sounds like you're doing a good job at trying to improve your performance, and looking in all the right places. I honestly wouldn't worry about twisting most of the time, especially in Kara - work on your personal DPS first, then work twisting into longer fights where it will make a difference, like Bear, Lynx, and maybe Nightbane for fun. If you find that you're still underperforming, then run heroics like there's no tomorrow on nights that you're not in Kara or ZA. Save the badges for 2.4, get the two slow fist weapons (what weapons are you using, anyway? I can't armory from work--if you don't have at least S1, get them immediately and start working on S2/3), then start in on the leather gear. Also consider your typical raid composition - if you run caster-heavy and don't usually have Leader of the Pack, Battle Shout, Expose Weakness, Sunderx5, Faerie Fire, or whatever else, while your casters have group synergies working for them, you may never catch up, and it's not because you're doing something wrong.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

• Toots Hepcat

It's all about DPS. Stats should lead to higher DPS, but you can have one stat high and still suck because shaman DPS is a feedback system. Your Expertise gloves, for example, don't help your AP much but will help your DPS a lot.

So know your DPS. Know your EP and only take upgrades that have a higher EP. Stay away from, say, [Beastmaw Pauldrons] and other gear that wastes a lot of its budget on stats that won't give you better DPS. You have one of the best MH weapons in the game, put Mongoose on it. Your quickest upgrade is a decent offhand...the first boss in heroic Underbog has a very nice one.

What DPS is good enough for Kara? Well, I've been fortunate enough to see new alts and folks with bizarre PvP specs doing 200 or 300 dps in there on a full clear -- this is because I was in there doing 800. Your goal should be to be in the top 3, around 500 dps.

 

Rhaegal

This got me thinking about what my DPS was like when we first started Kara, and I didn't know what the hell I was doing, in addition to wearing mostly blues and whatever early-Kara stuff that had happened to drop. Aran has always been my benchmark, because at the time our raids were pretty threat-limited, and Aran is a very balls-to-the-walls-melee-awesome-fest. I think our first few Aran kills before I got anything resembling good gear, I was doing 800 DPS minimum on him, with a feral druid and battle shout.

Nalorakk is another good DPS benchmark. If you're doing ZA just to clear it, you should aim to be able to do 700-800 DPS on him. Down the road, if you're looking to do it on the timer, scrape together every buff you can (down to silly things like [Flame Cap]) and really try to break into 4-digit DPS; if you don't have at least 2-3 people who can break 1k DPS in the raid, you're not likely to get even the first chest, and this fight is very melee friendly so you can pull out all the stops.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!