I never thought of that. Seems to me on heroic the mighty Stoneclaw totem could only take two of their AoE blasts before melting, and chances are I'd still be close enough during that period to take splash damage.
Kahdrick also claimed in his post that Stoneclaw Totem is immune to AOE damage (which I wasn't aware of), and if this is the case then the grenades would not kill the totem at all.
All totems are immune to AoE effects. Totem pets (Fire Elemental, Earth Elemental) are not because they're, well, pets and count as NPCs, but the actual totems themselves are still immune. The bombs are a ground AoE, so even though the little demon guys in Mech might be targeting the totem, they won't actually be able to damage it unless they run up to it and melee. Pretty ingenious, actually.
If I have time over the next few days I'll try to model and graph something as a relation between Expertise AEP and dps throughput with the new t6 and shard of contempt. While I'm doing that, if anyone has input regarding the relationship or general comments about when expertise becomes optimal, regardless of effect on other stats, i'd appreciate it. (If you don't know, then don't waste your time typing an answer)
Well, your question didn't ask "does a graph between Expertise EP and DPS exist", it asked "at what point is Expertise good enough that I should give up crit for Expertise" which is pretty different and a dumb question. (The EP for crit and EP for expertise rating exist so that you can answer it yourself.) I still don't know what you are really looking to learn from this exercise. I can tell you what your graph will look like. Assuming you are increasing DPS by adding additional expertise rating, then expertise EP is going to be slightly negatively correlated with DPS until you reach the cap (93 rating IIRC); once you get to the expertise cap, expertise EP will drop to 0. If that assumption is wrong and you are increasing DPS by adding AP, then expertise EP is going to be slightly positively correlated with DPS. If you are increasing DPS by adding crit, then expertise EP is going to be slightly negatively correlated with DPS (hits granted by expertise can't crit).
Ignoring on-hit procs for a moment, both Expertise and Crit Rating have roughly the same task -- altering the attack table. Theoretically, 1% dodge reduction should result in the same increase in damage as 1% increased crit, because unlike hit rating (which beyond 9% hit only affects autoattack), both affect autoattack, SS and WF.
This means that 16 ER should be roughly worth 22.08 Crit Rating in a raid situation, and 4 ER should be worth 5.52 CR. It's harder to compare 1 ER to 1 CR, because ER only counts in blocks of 3.96, but assuming blocks of 4, 1 ER = 1.38 CR.
Looking at my freshly simulated EP values (I have no ER and average about 34% crit in raids), ER is worth 2.87 EP, while CR is worth 2.06 EP. Solving for ER, 1 ER = 1.39 CR. The extra .01 we can either chock up to standard deviation, or to my many on-hit procs (Dragonstrike, Windfury, 2xMongoose).
When soloing mobs that can parry, the value of ER is doubled, and when fighting mobs that cannot dodge, such as casters, it is 0.
I still don't know what you are really looking to learn from this exercise.
I generall dislike speaking for others, but in the interest of brevity. It looks obvious to me that Genshoku is hoping that by graphing expertise's benefits, He can tell us that when a "normal" shaman is at 18% chance to crit, crit rating has the same EP as expertise rating.
However, that's very easy to do in just a few minutes using the simulator. *edit* i went to the simulator and came up with 15% crit (no feral druid buff). At 15% crit with 2500 AP and no feral buff, expertise rating and critical strike rating had essentially equal EP values. So I monkied around some more with Yo!'s sim and changed hit to zero and 40%, naturally this caused hit value to jump up and down, but crit rating and expertise still remained pretty even. I did not play with the sim long enough to say something like, at 21% crit, crit rating never has a higher EP value than expertise.
According to http://elitistjerks.com/659225-post7535.html 91 expertise rating for non-axe-wielding-orcs. That post is just a correction of the wowwiki.com expertise rating explanation which used math showing 90 as the most you'd want. I'm not sure if it's important for Malan to include that number in the first post.
Incidentally, I would love to have final confirmation on what the dodge % is for l73 mobs.
The rogues here say 6.5%, which would necessitate 103 ER. Wowwiki says 5.6%, which would necessitate 91 ER.
I think part of the question here is that WWS rounds dodge % to an integer. Browsing random WWS parses for a shaman who I know has no expertise, I see it's usually 5 or 6% dodge. That doesn't help me ken the exact number.
I'm currently working on a project that, when done, will give me the complete itemization stats for enhance shamans based off of the EP values for t5 thread. I ultimately find that the high end models will be incorrect because they take in t6. This is what I've found true so far using a basic model.
-------LEGGINGS----------
Gladiator's Linked Leggings
Vendor: PvP reward
Armor 758
Armor Type
Str 30
Stam 54
Int 25
Crit 36
Res 28
Estimated EP = 138
----------------------------------
Cyclone War-Kilt
Vendor: Leggings of the Fallen Champion
Armor 740
Armor Type
Str 35
Agi 35
Stam 52
Int 24
Mp5 10
Estimated EP = 147
----------------------------------
Merciless Gladiator's Linked Leggings
Vendor: PvP reward
Armor 835
Armor Type
Str 34
Stam 60
Int 29
Crit 40
res 31
Estimated EP = 154.8
----------------------------------
Forestwalker = Kilt
Drop: Mana Tombs (Nexus-Prince Shaffar)
Armor 459
Armor Type Leather
Str 33
Agi 26
Stam 24
Int 27
red socket
blue socket
blue socket
(+4 str)
Socketed 8 str gems only
+24 str
Estimated EP = 177.4
Socketed 1 x 8 str, 2 x 4str/6stam
+20 str/+12 stam
Estimated EP = 168.6
----------------------------------
Midnight Legguards
Drop: Slave Pens
Armor 305
Armor Type Leather
Stam 30
red socket
red socket
blue socket
(+4 hit)
Hit 17
Crit 27
Ap 64
Socketed 8 str gems only
+24 str
Estimated EP = 194.6
Agi 32
Stam 28
red socket
red socket
blue socket
(+4 dodge)
Hit 28
AP 64
Socketed 8 str gems only
+24 str
Estimated EP = 220
----------------------------------
Skyshatter Pants
Vendor: Leggings of the Forgotten Protector
Armor 894
Armor Type: Mail
Str 46
Stam 67
Int 31
blue socket
(+2 str)
hit 21
Crit 39
Mp5 9
Socketed 8 str gems only
+8 str
Estimated EP = 226.2
-----------------------------------
Shallow-grave Trousers
Vendor: 75 Badges of Justice
Armor 353
Armor Type Leather
Agi 45
Stam 46
Haste 30
AP 92
Estimated EP = 226.4
------------------------------------
Scaled Greaves of the Marksman
Drop: Doom Lord Kazzak
Armor 740
Armor Type Mail
Agi 37
red socket
red socket
red socket
(+4 Agi)
Hit 16
Ap 76
Socketed 8 str gems only
+24 str/+4 agi
Estimated EP 233.2
----------------------------------
Shady Dealer's Pantaloons
Drop: Mount Hyjal (Azgalor)
Armor 388
Armor Type: Leather
Agi 50
Stam 61
AP 102
ArmPen 175
Estimated EP = 251
-----------------------------------
Leggings of Murderous Intent
Drop: Tempest Keep (Kael'thas Sunstrider)
Armor 380
Armor Type: Leather
Agi 45
Stam 31
Crit 37
AP 92
Estimated EP = 256
-----------------------------------
Bow-stitched Leggings
Drop: Mount Hyjal (Azgalor)
Armor 864
Armor Type Mail
Agi 42
Stam 28
Int 28
red socket
yellow socket
blue socket
(+4 crit)
Crit 20
AP 100
Socketed with 8 str gems only
+24 str
Estimated EP = 276.8
Socketed with 8 str, 4 crit/4 str, 4 str/6stam
+16 str/+8 crit/+6 stam
Estimated EP = 275.2
-------END EP CALC----------
If this is true then it would be wise if we can get a rough estimate for what the EP values of set bonuses are. These are just legs and maybe there is a significant upgrade among tier pieces other then leggings but if this holds true it would be greatly beneficial to know.
I'm not sure if they have already been calculated so to save myself time I figured I would ask first. Thanks for reading.
It has been said many times, and in the OP I believe, Enhancer, found on wowace, is probably the best WF time tracking mod available. (for both totem and self weapon imbues)
If this is true then it would be wise if we can get a rough estimate for what the EP values of set bonuses are. These are just legs and maybe there is a significant upgrade among tier pieces other then leggings but if this holds true it would be greatly beneficial to know.
I'm not sure if they have already been calculated so to save myself time I figured I would ask first. Thanks for reading.
2t4: 12 Str * (EP value for Str) = EP value for 2t4
4t4: 6 DPS * (EP value for 1 DPS) = EP value for 4t4
2t5: 0
4t5: 5 * 15.76 * Flurry uptime = EP value for 4t5
2t6: 0
4t6: 70 EP
You'd be better off just using the sim as Rob suggests below, but there's a rough guide you can plug in your EP values into.
Last edited by Daler : 03/06/08 at 4:38 PM.
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
Ignoring on-hit procs for a moment, both Expertise and Crit Rating have roughly the same task -- altering the attack table. Theoretically, 1% dodge reduction should result in the same increase in damage as 1% increased crit, because unlike hit rating (which beyond 9% hit only affects autoattack), both affect autoattack, SS and WF.
This means that 16 ER should be roughly worth 22.08 Crit Rating in a raid situation, and 4 ER should be worth 5.52 CR. It's harder to compare 1 ER to 1 CR, because ER only counts in blocks of 3.96, but assuming blocks of 4, 1 ER = 1.38 CR.
This neglects that critical strikes refresh the Flurry buff; apart from that, I can get behind it.
Originally Posted by Rapparee
It looks obvious to me that Genshoku is hoping that by graphing expertise's benefits, He can tell us that when a "normal" shaman is at 18% chance to crit, crit rating has the same EP as expertise rating.
However, that's very easy to do in just a few minutes using the simulator.
Which I guess is why I'm confused as to why a graph and everything is needed.
If this is true then it would be wise if we can get a rough estimate for what the EP values of set bonuses are. These are just legs and maybe there is a significant upgrade among tier pieces other then leggings but if this holds true it would be greatly beneficial to know.
I'm not sure if they have already been calculated so to save myself time I figured I would ask first. Thanks for reading.
Use Yo's sim, put in your desired stats without the set bonus, run and get a DPS number. Then enable the set bonus, get a DPS number, turn on "calculate EP weights" and note the number that's like "1 AP = 0.28 DPS". Take DPS2, subtract DPS1, and then divide by the DPS weight of AP to get the EP of the set bonus.
Use Yo's sim, put in your desired stats without the set bonus, run and get a DPS number. Then enable the set bonus, get a DPS number, turn on "calculate EP weights" and note the number that's like "1 AP = 0.28 DPS". Take DPS2, subtract DPS1, and then divide by the DPS weight of AP to get the EP of the set bonus.
That logic is ultimately flawed though because you're assuming you are using the same stats for both. If you do not use tier and instead use an item with a much higher EP value then you will see gains. In order to have any sort of accuracy you will have to compute the EP value of the set bonus per each tier and take in group build. If there is an estimated EP value for the set bonus you can add it to the EP value of the two or 4 peices you are comparing to gear which is not tier.
This is not as simple as subtracted derived values from itself and only taking in a set bonus. According to my calculations the change from tier to even the peice off of Kazzak is such a extraordinary upgrade that if you extrapolate it over 2 or 4 pieces the dps gain/loss can be extreme.
That logic is ultimately flawed though because you're assuming you are using the same stats for both. If you do not use tier and instead use an item with a much higher EP value then you will see gains. In order to have any sort of accuracy you will have to compute the EP value of the set bonus per each tier and take in group build. If there is an estimated EP value for the set bonus you can add it to the EP value of the two or 4 peices you are comparing to gear which is not tier.
This is not as simple as subtracted derived values from itself and only taking in a set bonus. According to my calculations the change from tier to even the peice off of Kazzak is such a extraordinary upgrade that if you extrapolate it over 2 or 4 pieces the dps gain/loss can be extreme.
Step 1) Make two warcrafter.net sheets, one with the 4 tier pieces, one with the replacement pieces in question.
Step 2) Run the sim with both and compare.
Step 3) ????
Step 4) Profit.
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
I think part of the question here is that WWS rounds dodge % to an integer. Browsing random WWS parses for a shaman who I know has no expertise, I see it's usually 5 or 6% dodge. That doesn't help me ken the exact number.
Doesn't the WWS tell you the number of dodges/misses?
I found a warrior and his auto attack for the entire raid had the following columns:
Landed Norm Dot Crit Glanc Crush All Miss Miss Resist Block Parry Dodge
Nb 1843 1125 1319 718 270 87 59 124
landed = 1843
normal = 1125
dot was blank
Crit = 1319
Glance = 718 (glanc + norm = landed, or at least it should)
Crush was blank
all miss = 270
miss = 87
resist was blank
block was blank
parry = 59
dodge = 124 (miss+block+parry+dodge = all miss for melee type attacks, or at least it should)
However, you have to know the bosses abilities. For instance, don't use Teron Gorefiend, Rage Winterchill and other bosses that turn around to target people for secondary spell abilities. Or if you do, remind yourself that the dodge/parry rates on those bosses will likely be higher.
That logic is ultimately flawed though because you're assuming you are using the same stats for both. If you do not use tier and instead use an item with a much higher EP value then you will see gains. In order to have any sort of accuracy you will have to compute the EP value of the set bonus per each tier and take in group build. If there is an estimated EP value for the set bonus you can add it to the EP value of the two or 4 peices you are comparing to gear which is not tier.
Err, you're obviously going to be wearing T5 if you have the T5 set bonus active, so it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to think that you'd use T5 gear as your base for the simulation. Obviously it's just an estimate, but so are all EP calculations by their very nature.
Sometimes I just see the obsession with "precise" results that many posters have as bordering on absurdity. It's not vital to know 100% accurate EP valuations for every single item, it's only necessary to know which item is "better". And yes, [Insidious Bands] may be 2 EP better than [Deadly Cuffs] but you are never going to see that translate into an actual DPS increase in a raid, the difference is too small and our DPS is too random in nature. Whatever though, I'll just start ignoring these posts instead of trying to sway people over to my PoV.
That logic is ultimately flawed though because you're assuming you are using the same stats for both. If you do not use tier and instead use an item with a much higher EP value then you will see gains. In order to have any sort of accuracy you will have to compute the EP value of the set bonus per each tier and take in group build. If there is an estimated EP value for the set bonus you can add it to the EP value of the two or 4 peices you are comparing to gear which is not tier.
There was a big discussion several pages ago where Malan and others were talking about the fact that while EP values do change a little as you move from tier to tier, the differences between gear ilvl changes significantly more, making the EP value fluctuations meaningless except for a few specific items, notably ones with armor pen and haste. The net result was that you end up with the same relative order for almost every piece of gear available (obviously excepting those already mentioned.)
Point being, while you may find a value difference of a few EP for the different set bonuses as you change gear levels, I highly doubt there will be any practical application for that information, given that the difference in total EP for gear between tiers will be far greater than the EP difference of set bonuses evaluated at the different levels. If a set bonus is so amazing that you'd want to hold onto it for longer than the other gear at its level, like 3 pc Ten Storms, or rogue 2 pc T4, it would be pretty clear, and the point at which it's safe to get rid of it will also be pretty clear. If it's not, then you're talking about a low-single-digit EP difference like Rob mentioned, and at that point it boils down to personal preference.
In any case, it's going to be safer for people to just run the sim with their gear options to decide if a set bonus is worth breaking. If you really want to be anal about having an exact EP assignment for the bonuses, you'd have to consider an absurd amount of gear combinations... just let people figure it out on their own, in my opinion.
2t4: 12 Str * (EP value for Str) = EP value for 2t4
4t4: 6 DPS * (EP value for 1 DPS) = EP value for 4t4
2t5: 0
4t5: 5 * 15.76 * Flurry uptime = EP value for 4t5
2t6: 0
4t6: 70 EP
You'd be better off just using the sim as Rob suggests below, but there's a rough guide you can plug in your EP values into.
AS for the 2t4 bonus, people seem to often get it wrong. You gain 12 strength to the BASE amount, but after the Enhancing Totems talent it becomes 14 (very easy to check).
I seem to remember some talk about the Dragonstrike uptime some time ago, someone wanted some parses for it I think. I just got ProcWatch and ran it through tonights raid and ended up with a PPM of ~1.
I didn't use any haste pots this run, so the haste proc should only be from the Dragonstrike. I should be logged out in my PVE gear if that matters.
I'd like to help by gathering parses, but I'm not entirely sure what it is you want to test. The blasted lands mobs are too low level and will skew the results due to the level difference, am I right? Should I force a tank and a healer to come with me to Halaa to just swing on a guard for a given amount of time without WF and SS, with SS and with SS and WF? How long should the parses be?
I'm sorry if I missed the testing of this already.
Obviously if you dual wield, you have twice as many chances to proc. That has to do with the number of chances, not the speed of the weapons.
You won't gain anything from swapping in faster weapons. Indeed, you'd actually have LESS mana returned. Here's why:
Let's say it's 10 PPM. With a 2.6s weapon, you swing 23 times a minute. Your chance per hit would be 43.4%. With a 1.3s weapon, you swing 46 times a minute. Your chance per hit would be 21.7.
Let's assume a really nasty miss chance: the full 15%, plus 6.5% dodge. With two arms swinging, at 2.6s, you'd have 18 successes inside of the 30s window. With two arms at 1.3s, you'd have 36. In either case, you'd have an average of 7.8 successful swings.
However, in both cases you'd also have a chance to proc off Windfury and Stormstrike. Assuming WF every 5s, and SS every 10, this is an additional 18 (minus dodge, 16.8) chances to proc SR returns -- at the same rate as your autoattack swings! With 2.6s weapons, this is an additional 7.3 procs. With 1.3s weapons, this is an additional 3.65 procs.
In conclusion: when nothing is normalized, slow weapons are a good thing. Didn't you hear?!
I guess I'm confused about the PPM mechanic then. You're saying it's not affected by haste, so that if I have a item with 20 PPM, and 100% haste, it's effectively 40 PPM? And also that Procs per minute isn't capped by the PPM rate, thereby limiting additional procs from extra attacks due to WF and SS?
I thought the whole difference between the flat % chance on hit and the PPM mechanic was that % on hit wasn't normalized, but PPM was. Thus, if you had a 1% chance on hit proc on a .6 speed weapon, with a 99% miss rate, on that one hit you got per minute (on average), you would have a 1% chance to proc the effect, but that if you had a 1 PPM proc on that same weapon, you'd have a 100% chance to proc on that one hit per minute (theoretically).
From that assumption, if you take your scenario, the additional SS and WF hits would not increase the number of procs at all, unless there were so many procs available per minute (say, 60 PPM), that you were already proccing at 100%. And if you've got a nearly 100% proc rate, wouldn't faster weapons allow you to access more of those 60 PPM?
To take your math, if SR is 40 PPM, With a 2.6s weapon, you swing 23 times a minute. Your chance per hit would be 100%. With a 1.3s weapon, you swing 46 times a minute. Your chance per hit would be 87.0%.
Let's assume a really nasty miss chance: the full 15%, plus 6.5% dodge. With two arms swinging, at 2.6s, you'd have 18 successes inside of the 30s window. With two arms at 1.3s, you'd have 36. With 2.6, you'd have an average of 18 successful swings, but with 1.3s, you'd have 31.
Since neither of these are up to 30, we can still get additional procs from WF and SS. Assuming WF every 5s, and SS every 10, this is an additional 18 (minus dodge, 16.8) chances to proc SR returns -- at the same rate as your autoattack swings! With 2.6s weapons, this is an additional 17 procs (I'm rounding, obviously) which would net you a total of 35. With 1.3s weapons, this is an additional 15 procs, which would break the maximum PPM and leave you at 40 (or, if your understanding of the PPM mechanic is correct, would leave you at 46).
With higher PPM rates, faster weapons provide a clear advantage over slower ones.
Regardless, your dps would suffer, but since SR is being reduced to only a 15 second duration, it might be worth it.
Can anyone clarify if I'm a moron when it comes to PPM mechanics?
My understanding on ppm mechanics is that they're applied as a % chance on hit based on current weapon speed. As your weapon speed changes the % chance to proc the ppm effect also changes. For an example lets say you have a trinket with some effect that is intended to be 1 ppm, with a single 3.0 weapon it would have 5% chance to proc on each hit, if you gain a bunch of haste and your weapon drops to 2.0 speed the chance to proc drops to 3.33% per swing.
The bias towards slow weapons shows up when you consider that instant attacks like SS and WF can also proc these effects and as far as I know(please correct me if this is wrong) their chance to proc is based on the weapons adjusted chance to proc. so in the case of a 3.0 weapon each SS and WF hit have a 5% chance to proc the 1 ppm effect. A 1.0 speed weapon would only have 1.67% chance to proc the same effect on each attack including SS and WF. So although their white hits should result in the same number of procs, the higher chance on special attacks for the slow weapon skews the results in favor of it.
5.5k to 6k unbuffed is a comfortable amount I think. With JoW you could probably get away with a lot less. There are some encounters where it's just not realistic for the paladin to keep it up though.
I got two questions for the community.
I was planning on buying the two new fistweapons that's purchasable with badgets in 2.4 since they seem very good. I'm having second thoughts now though cause since I'm an Orc would it actually be any point since they're pretty fast, and I'd lose the expertise bonus of wielding two axes? Would it be better to stick with my Wicked Edge of Planes and pick up Rising Tide in the offhand. Would the gain of a few dps on the new weapons actually win over two slower axes?
The second question is about Executioner enchant. My guild has cleared Hyjal and are currently working our way through BT, and as I understand it Executioner gets better the more actual Armor Penetration you have passively on your gear. I've currently got roughly 650 passive Armor Penetration, but thats mostly from my ZA and PvP gear. The more I gear up in Hyjal/BT the less Armor Penetration I'm gonna have. Would Executioner still be the best Main Hand enchant to wield?
Shocktherapy, use the Simulator. Thats what it is there for. Input your values with the different gear, and see which one gets a higher DPS number.
About the PPM thing. This is how I understand it (using unrealistically extreme examples, that should however get the point across):
Lets say you have a 60.0 speed weapon and a 1 PPM proc. This means you have a 100% chance to proc per hit.
Now, lets say you have a 6.0 speed weapon and still a 1 PPM proc. This means you have a 10% chance to proc per hit.
Now, assuming you have only white attacks, the 60.0 and the 6.0 speed weapons will have the same result.
However, if you have additional special attacks that can also proc, the situation changes.
Lets say you have one special attack every 6 seconds (10 in one Minute).
With the 60.0 speed weapon, this means you will have 1 proc from the white attacks plus an additional 10 procs from the special attacks. A total of 11 procs.
With the 6.0 speed weapon, you still have 1 proc from the white attacks, but now you have only a single additional proc from the special attacks, because your attacks only have a 10% proc chance. This means you only have 2 procs.
03/06/08, 1:58 PM
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