I am currently sitting at 188 passive haste rating and I am starting to wonder if I am overdoing it. I know that 2.4 is going to make haste a much more valuable stat, but I more worried about right now.
With my current haste rating, my attack speed is down to 2.32 -- I have Rising Tide MH and S2 Axe OH. Is this killing WF procs?
Also, if I was asked to explain why I have so much haste rating, what would be a solid answer to that question?
Thanks.
The first post in section 3.1.3 clearly states that an increase of haste rating will increase white DPS. The theoretical valley with too much haste doesn't exist, so haste is good.
I'm not going to try and put words in your mouth, but shouldn't your answer to why you have so much haste is because you used Yo!'s simulator, calculated your personal EP values, and evaluated those specific items as upgrades to your previous gear?
I am curious as to whether everyone equips separate gear sets for different encounters, or pretty much carries a single max-mean dps set. The reason is I am at very early raids in terms of progression (ZA, Gruul, etc.), and the bosses seem to have a huge armor disparity. I have been unable to find any quotes for ZA boss armor values (please tell me if you know of such a resource!), but my completely unrigorous and handwavy impression is that they are quite low compared to the normal 6.2k-7.7k range. On the other hand Gruul is highly armored, which makes ignore armor seem rather less valuable. Is there a common practice of carrying around multiple gear sets depending on the armor level of bosses?
Also, for the provided T4-T6 guideline EP values, is there a boss armor value assumption for the provided EP values of armor penetration? (I know I should just run Yo!'s sim, but I have a PPC Mac and can't run it on any Linux or Windows cluster machines at my university either... sigh.)
I know this has probably already been discussed in this thread, however I don't feel like searching for hours. Anyways, since our special attacks are hit-capped, and extra hit rating is just good to have, would there happen to be a point where your hit rating becomes capped? I wouldn't want to keep adding stat weights to hit rating if I'm already hit capped.
I don't know offhand what the hit-cap is but if you've been following the weights from the sim an gearing yourself like that you'll never get hit capped with the current itemization.
I know this has probably already been discussed in this thread, however I don't feel like searching for hours. Anyways, since our special attacks are hit-capped, and extra hit rating is just good to have, would there happen to be a point where your hit rating becomes capped? I wouldn't want to keep adding stat weights to hit rating if I'm already hit capped.
Since people can't seem to grasp when this is typed out, perhaps illustrations will help.
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I have looked around for an answer regarding this issue but am having trouble. I've recently specced enhancement but have been building up gear for a while. Last night in eye I was raiding with another enhance shammy, very similar gearing to mine. My hit is slightly higher at 134 to his 86. This seems to be reflected in his melee miss being 20% to my 18%. However his wf miss rate was dramatically lower than mine at 7% to my 10%.
Our weapons are both 2.6 in both mh and oh so I don't think the reason is that I'm getting more oh wf.
The only major difference between gear is he has mongoose on both, i only have crusader at moment. I assume I've missed something obvious, but after browsing around for the last couple of hours, I have yet to find it.
I have looked around for an answer regarding this issue but am having trouble. I've recently specced enhancement but have been building up gear for a while. Last night in eye I was raiding with another enhance shammy, very similar gearing to mine. My hit is slightly higher at 134 to his 86. This seems to be reflected in his melee miss being 20% to my 18%. However his wf miss rate was dramatically lower than mine at 7% to my 10%.
Our weapons are both 2.6 in both mh and oh so I don't think the reason is that I'm getting more oh wf.
The only major difference between gear is he has mongoose on both, i only have crusader at moment. I assume I've missed something obvious, but after browsing around for the last couple of hours, I have yet to find it.
Provided you've chosen the 'common' enhancement build with +9% hit when dual wielding, your specials (WF+SS) should be hit capped and thus never miss. This means that the 'miss' from WWS are mostly dodges and some parry (probably from trash or you've been unlucky and hit a boss in the face). You can expand the column of the wws and you'll see what the misses really are. In my case a whole run contains a couple of parries (trash mobs mostly) and some dodge, but I've never seen a special miss recorded in any of our WWS parses.
Wild guess he has an item with expertise and you don't, or he's better at hitting stuff in the back. If you have a link to the WWS that would enable the rest of us to help you should anyone find the interest.
Thjanks for that feedback, you are correct neither of us missed on any wf or ss attack and it appears the decrepancy does lie in my larger parried and dodged attacks. Bad positioning from me then I assume, at least this can be easily resolved. Although neither of us have any, I see now how a little expertise can go a long way. I look forward to al'ar's gloves dropping.
The reason is I am at very early raids in terms of progression (ZA, Gruul, etc.), and the bosses seem to have a huge armor disparity. I have been unable to find any quotes for ZA boss armor values (please tell me if you know of such a resource!), but my completely unrigorous and handwavy impression is that they are quite low compared to the normal 6.2k-7.7k range.
Negative, every boss in ZA is either the High or Low armor value that every other boss in the game has. There is nothing special about the ZA bosses. You are perceiving a difference because your group is likely lacking some of the normal armor reduction debuffs that you are used to seeing in a full 25 man raid.
For the record, I just spent the last ~1h10m reading various search results. Found a few shiny objects and read them accordingly, but anyway, two questions..
"Reduced effect" on crusader above lv60.. reduced by how much? Does anyone know? I used to have crusader on my mid50s rogue and liked it. Very cool enchant, procs 'enough' imo and even looks nice. Bottom line, can't beat it for the price.. 80-120g depending on server.
But there the charm fades a little. I know, from said searching, that oldschool enchants DO benefit from haste as a result of how the PPM calcs work. My shaman is primarily used for pvp and things like Mongoose don't appeal to me that much.. the stick-and-move environment of pvp has nothing to do with the constant burn and drag of a 10min boss fight, so PPM is very much an issue.
Yeah yeah I know.. fiery. Based on fire dmg being unmitigated by armor, the sheer frequency of the proc, the superlow cost of the enchant, the fact that it can crit, and the fact that 40 dmg is still a significant percentage of the dmg done per swing, I decided fiery wasn't so bad. Don't shit a brick when you see fiery on my aging OH.
My other question is.. if the hallmark of an enh shaman is a slow weapon to cut down on the number of swings that occur while INSIDE the wf cooldown.. then, why isn't everyone using weapons with a speed that adds up to logical multiples of 3? Such as a weapon with a 1.5 swing;
0.000 swing axe, make priest piss his pants, proc wf
0.001 weapon timer spins, look at the pretty colors..
1.500 weapon timer resets, swing again at another priest whos still alive..
1.501 "while my DJ revolves it" ..
3.000 second swing timer reset, ready for 3rd swing, 3sec wf cooldown reset, ready to go?
..or is this an oversimplification?
I'll probly get crusader in any case but I believe that the degree to which the effect is 'reduced' just because I'm higher than lv60 is of some importance and DOES factor into the decision, as I see it. Potency I'm not real thrilled about. There's nothing wrong with it, its probly just not overall best since 40 ap per weapon is nice but nothing to write home about.
My other question is.. if the hallmark of an enh shaman is a slow weapon to cut down on the number of swings that occur while INSIDE the wf cooldown.. then, why isn't everyone using weapons with a speed that adds up to logical multiples of 3? Such as a weapon with a 1.5 swing;
0.000 swing axe, make priest piss his pants, proc wf
0.001 weapon timer spins, look at the pretty colors..
1.500 weapon timer resets, swing again at another priest whos still alive..
1.501 "while my DJ revolves it" ..
3.000 second swing timer reset, ready for 3rd swing, 3sec wf cooldown reset, ready to go?
..or is this an oversimplification?
Flurry and Mongoose mean that it's impossible to actually have a fixed swing time, and there's no benefit from minimizing the time between WF's cooldown ending and the next proc. Doing so maximizes the number of WF procs you get, but reduces the size of your WF procs at the exact same rate.
My other question is.. if the hallmark of an enh shaman is a slow weapon to cut down on the number of swings that occur while INSIDE the wf cooldown.. then, why isn't everyone using weapons with a speed that adds up to logical multiples of 3?
For one, Shamans are all about the haste proc. There's no such thing a constant speed for a shaman weapon; not with Flurry, Bloodlust, Mongoose, Dragonstrike, DST, haste pots, drums of battle and Berzerking.
Furthermore, cutting down the number of swings between windfuries is only PART of the value of a slow weapon. The main value of a slow weapon is that it is simply more damage per strike.
Let's call the average period between windfuries the Windfury Lag. The total dps of windfury could be stated thusly:
Windfury Damage / (3s + Windfury lag)
Windfury damage can be reduced to 2 * ((AP/14) + Weapon DPS) * Weapon speed. Windfury lag can similarly be reduced to some function of weapon speed. I don't know exactly what that function is -- it would include some combination of hit rating, expertise rating, haste rating, haste procs and your stormstrike strategy -- but no matter what it is, that 3s is ALWAYS there to prevent WF DPS from scaling with weapon speed.
This isn't to say that, given a slow weapon, you can't adjust some other component of the windfury lag (such as haste, your SS strategy, or switching from 2Hs to dual wield) and wind up with an increase in windfury output. You will have a net benefit to dps if you go with the slowest weapon you can find, and then speed it up.
For one, Shamans are all about the haste proc. There's no such thing a constant speed for a shaman weapon; not with Flurry, Bloodlust, Mongoose, Dragonstrike, DST, haste pots, drums of battle and Berzerking.
Furthermore, cutting down the number of swings between windfuries is only PART of the value of a slow weapon. The main value of a slow weapon is that it is simply more damage per strike.
Let's call the average period between windfuries the Windfury Lag. The total dps of windfury could be stated thusly:
Windfury Damage / (3s + Windfury lag)
Windfury damage can be reduced to 2 * ((AP/14) + Weapon DPS) * Weapon speed. Windfury lag can similarly be reduced to some function of weapon speed. I don't know exactly what that function is -- it would include some combination of hit rating, expertise rating, haste rating, haste procs and your stormstrike strategy -- but no matter what it is, that 3s is ALWAYS there to prevent WF DPS from scaling with weapon speed.
This isn't to say that, given a slow weapon, you can't adjust some other component of the windfury lag (such as haste, your SS strategy, or switching from 2Hs to dual wield) and wind up with an increase in windfury output. You will have a net benefit to dps if you go with the slowest weapon you can find, and then speed it up.
To short this explanation down abit: Neither WF or SS is normalized, meaning we still get the benefit of a slower speed. Normalized 1h speed (except for daggers) are at 2.4. Anything above will make that multiplier higher (regular 2.6 weps has a 2.6 mutliplier etc..)
So, what do we get from slower weps? Harder hits/more DPS.
I did some testing on the new Shamanistic Rage a few days back. I expected it to fill up my mana bar like it does on live, but unfortunatly it did not always do that. I can see this being extremely detrimental to people in full leather kits and getting a bit unlucky would result in a suboptimal amount of mana regained, or am I being too pessimistic here?
Last edited by Illundai : 03/12/08 at 1:14 AM.
Reason: Editting whine out after coffee.
But there the charm fades a little. I know, from said searching, that oldschool enchants DO benefit from haste as a result of how the PPM calcs work. My shaman is primarily used for pvp and things like Mongoose don't appeal to me that much.. the stick-and-move environment of pvp has nothing to do with the constant burn and drag of a 10min boss fight, so PPM is very much an issue.
Yeah yeah I know.. fiery. Based on fire dmg being unmitigated by armor, the sheer frequency of the proc, the superlow cost of the enchant, the fact that it can crit, and the fact that 40 dmg is still a significant percentage of the dmg done per swing, I decided fiery wasn't so bad. Don't shit a brick when you see fiery on my aging OH.
To shed some more light on this. Crusader and Fiery's chance to proc is based entirely on base weapon speed so the number of procs scales with haste. All new BC proc enchants chance to proc is based on current weapon speed ensuring the same number of average procs per minute regardless of weapon speed.
Fiery is 6 PPM (or 26% chance per hit with a 2.6 weapon) for 40 Fire damage.
It is affected by CoE, Misery and Imp Scorch.
It has a 5% resist chance vs lvl 70 players and creatures and a 17% Resist chance vs lvl 73 targets.
Crusader is 1 PPM (or 4.3% chance per hit with a 2.6 weapon) that grants 60 STR (120 AP) for 15s with no cooldown
It is of course affected by UR which boosts it to 132 AP, and blessing of Kings which boosts the net result to 145 AP.
Both are viable cheap enchants for weapons which you may not want to drop the money / mats for a mongoose enchant on. Mongoose does however trump both despite its non-scaling with haste. You are right in thinking that potency is rubbish for its cost.
What i'm really interested in though is the PPM and possible cooldown of the new deathfrost enchant. A PPM of 2 would put it into the low viability range from pure damage if there is no cooldown associated
I did some testing on the new Shamanistic Rage a few days back. I expected it to fill up my mana bar like it does on live, but unfortunatly it did not always do that. I can see this being extremely detrimental to people in full leather kits and getting a bit unlucky would result in a suboptimal amount of mana regained, or am I being too pessimistic here?
Mana pots are cheap. If you have large mana spendings and SR/WS can't get you back up, it's not that horrible to have to spend the odd pot.
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To short this explanation down abit: Neither WF or SS is normalized, meaning we still get the benefit of a slower speed. Normalized 1h speed (except for daggers) are at 2.4. Anything above will make that multiplier higher (regular 2.6 weps has a 2.6 mutliplier etc..)
So, what do we get from slower weps? Harder hits/more DPS.
WF is normalized by constant proc rate, or would be if the 3 second cooldown did not exist. SS however is totally unnormalised as is WF procced by that SS.
Mana pots maybe are cheap for you, but they are extra cost. Also they were kinda failsafe earlier to failed SR in encounters. Btw, i seem to recall someone reporting mana return still being 15% AP, but as i have no PTR myself i can't verify what is it now.
03/11/08, 12:16 AM
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