Yo!

Used your stats from armory to compare 2 brutality fists with dragonstrike+brutality. All default buffs, added crusade as static 120 ap, orc racial selected. Dragonstrike+brutality earned 1225 dps, 2 fists 1227 so with this settings they are almost identical. Buffs that you have can change which one comes first alot.

 

Rhaegal

In preparation for the upcoming patch, I decided to do some weapon comparisons with the sim as well, and found some similar results. The actual DPS numbers seem a little high to me even for theoretical, but I was adding in some raid debuffs that I don't always have but probably will going forward (like CoR), so that could easily account for some of it. I also assumed that I had a [Shard of Contempt] (proc assumed to be ~90 AP passive). Everything is kept the same between attempts other than weapon information (double Mongoose on all, though), and modifying other stats based on stats that come on each weapon.

[Dragonstrike] + [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]: 1499
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]: 1501

[Dragonstrike] + [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]: 1513
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]: 1528

The difference between the first two is 2 DPS, while there's a 15 DPS difference between them when I upgrade my S2 OH to the badge OH. I'm sort of puzzled by this. I did all the calculations several times to make sure that I was modifying AP, crit, hit, and haste properly. I could understand a slight increase in preference for Vanir's MH when using the Vanir's OH due to better overall stats compared to Merc Glad's. Is it possible that it's a result of the DS proc messing with OH WF proc chances on a 2.5 speed weapon, and it's just not a problem with a 2.6 speed, so what I'm actually seeing is DS pushing down the potential DPS of Vanir's, instead of inflating that of the Merc Glad's OH?

[edited for typo in an item link]

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

Zula

Hello.

my group is usually composed by

War dps
rogue
rogue
Shammo enha (hi mom)
hunter\dudu or ret pala


usually i love to have ret pala instead of hunter\dudu

which is the best composition which all these? and why my rogues use venom instead of windfury? are venom > WF?

 

Malan

Just checked in at LootRank.com for some stuff and they are now supporting filtering of weapon types by speed.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Myul

Group choice from your personal view:
1. Feral
2. Hunter / Ret

But having the Ret in your group is the best choice for his personal dps (Ret without a wf totem is as good as a dps warrior without it..) and putting feral and hunter in another group together should regulary give you the best result.

Are your rogues all mutilate? Only with that specc it could be preferable for them to chose poison over windfury. But without having agilty totem it's a absolute wrong choise. Only poison plus agility totem can compete with wf.

 

Toots Hepcat

I also tested Dragonstrike vs the Left Hand and found DS to be about equal (+/- 2 dps difference).

This is a case where it would be nice to have some formula by which to quickly compare two weapons of unequal speed.

I started down the path of using Yo's to evaluate the WDPS -> AP, and quickly discovered (as has been mentioned before) that the number is the same for all weapon speeds (though my research showed an 8 AP to 1 WDPS MH conversion, implying that the conversion changes according to your stats).

What did change, however, was the AP -> Total DPS conversion. Slow weapons converted AP to DPS at a higher rate than slow ones given the same stats...at the most extreme, the conversion was around .21 DPS / AP for 1.5/1.5 weapons and .26 DPS / AP for 2.8/2.8 weapons.

 

Soryu

Wouldn't This card still have alot of value in helping you shocks crit if your elemental subspec? Remember that the spell buff and the melee buff are separate effects so a melee crit will only reset your + melee crit bonus, while leaving your +spellcrit boost free to stack all the way up to crazy numbers (or some sort of cap if there is one).

According to a sim run from wowhead comments you would gain:

5% base spell crit --> 5% average spell crit gain. and
41% base melee crit --> 1% average melee crit gain.

Wouldn't that give you around double uptime on your Elemental devastation? Surely worth something.

Another value of it is that it helps reduce unlucky strings off no crits offsetting how likely it is for UR/Flurry to fade or stay down a long time. I don't think I got the math to prove this however but my general feeling is that it would since the stack will grow each time you don't crit.

In the case of UR Fading 10 noncrits in a row (roughly 10sec) would be 7.70% extra crit on your next swing (and growing).

For Flurry it would be 2.31% extra crit on your next swing after 3 noncrits (and growing).

Is this card really as worthless as you claim and do people who subspec elemental in endgame even run with only 5% spellcrit?

EDIT: I just read about our high spellmiss on shocks, But is it possible to get a second try with 5sec cooldowns if you miss one before the buff fades? Gah everything gets so complicated... How big impact does this have?

 

• Daler

IIRC, [Darkmoon Card: Wrath]'s proc is a single buff that applies both physical and spell crit. That buff is then consumed by either a physical or spell crit, and then you start over (as opposed to [Darkmoon Card: Crusade], which stacks an AP buff and a +spell damage buff separately).

The calculation would be a bit tricky, but for elemental subspec, you'd have to calculate the number of swings you'd expect from WF and auto-attacks (including Flurry) in a 5 second interval, and then calculate the likelihood of you failing to score a single crit in that interval. That would give you both an expected benefit from the spell crit stack and an expected uptime for the stack buff as it pertains to your shock crit rate. From there, you'd have an adjusted spell crit modifier to calculate your expected average shock damage.

And to answer your edited comment, for the situation of a missed/non-shock crit, you'd have to do the above calculation for a 10 second interval and include the shock miss/non-crit probability. A similar calculation is done for computing expected UR uptime. It doesn't take especially high crit rates to get obscenely high UR uptimes.

TLDR: I'm not going to take the time to do the calculations for you, but given that you should be sporting around 30% crit by the time you hit SSC/TK, it really isn't worth it beyond T4 content, and probably not even then (Bloodlust + Hourglass/Abacus is a fine trinket combo, easily obtainable, and can last you up to, if not into, T6 content).

EDIT: I could, of course, be very wrong. But that's my napkin mathematic reasoning, and I'm sticking to it.

 

Prost

That is exactly how this card works, it applies a single buff for both. I used this card when I was severely under-geared (ie - pre-kara in greens) to help me keep Shamanistic Rage up with pathetically low crit rating. With any decent level of gear, you're critting so much as it is that you're getting hardly any benefit from the buff because nine times out of ten your melee crits will consume the buff not your spell crits.

 

Karok(EU)

@ Rhaegal:

I think you put in some wrong stats somewhere, With the gear I see in your current armory I come up with 1191 DPS (2/5 concussion and the buffs page default). Selecting every single buff/debuff would give 1616 DPS but not verry realistic since it would require: (a) a verry unrealistic group setup and (b) a several out-of-group specs that arent generally in the raid at all times.



I personally just use the base-line buff page with all default settings. Lately I've done some sims of my own to check the DPS differences between certain weapon setups while keeping the gear and other conditions the same. Here are my numbers (Since it's only a DPS and not a AEP calculation I ran each weapon setup for 10.000 hours only which should give a quite accurate DPS estimate). Both main and offhand are assumed to be enchanted with mongoose.

Setup 1: [Dragonstrike] + [Rod of the Sun King] -> 1380 DPS
Setup 2: [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] -> 1400 DPS
Setup 3; [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Mounting Vengeance] -> 1412 DPS
Setup 4: [Syphon of the Nathrezim] + [Syphon of the Nathrezim] -> 1386 DPS
Setup 5: [Syphon of the Nathrezim] + [Mounting Vengeance] -> 1403 DPS

Ofcourse these 5 setups don't cover the DW S3 axes or DS + <vanir/syphon/mounting> Which might or might not beat the Vanir's + Mounting I sim'd.

[e] On a side note, I also ran a 6th sim using weapon setup 3 and what I thought would be best-in-slot sunwell items. It came out at 1686 dps, quite a nice upgrade

 

Soryu

Ah yes ofcourse Im confusing It with Crusade, Ive used both of them but argh, why would they put in two very similar cards and give them totally different mechanics :S

 

Blazingwater

My guild has recently recruited another enhance shaman, and I'm having some issues with him.
He has stated that yes, he has seen this site and the OP, but refuses to follow any of it. One thing is he uses a Slow/Fast weapon combo. Yet he uses WF/WF. He says that he dagger procs are still pretty big with WF and it's better because he gets more flurry/UR/SR procs with the dagger, which is better (in his mind). He also sockets AP, stam, and hit gems. I could see the stam gems because he does do a lot of PvP (yet has a rating of 1449). And his spec? WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator I admit, it could be worse. The only half-decent part of him is his armor. He's got the right idea about that (minus the trinket). Armory link is: The World of Warcraft Armory

Does anyone have any advice as what I should do about him? Any arguements that could help him, or anything that he could do? He argues that that's his play style, and I've got mine. I've just nearly given up on him.

 

Devnex

Some people are beyond help. If he's still in the recruitment process get him cut. "Play style" isn't a valid excuse for willful ignorance.

 

Enzyte

Gems are all wrong and using a fast off hand is just a big no no. I can't even imagine what his dps is like on WWS.


I would suggest him to change his ways or just kick him....there are other shaman out there that are willing to listen
and better themselves.

 

vorda

The first post (which he says he read) holds all the (extremely solid) math. If that isn't enough for him, get rid of him. And try telling him NOT to jump out of the window, you could do mankind a favor.

To not be completely unconstructive:
- SR: yes, it might proc more, but he shouldnt have problems filling his mana if he is geared correctly
- UR: If the uptime isnt 100%, he should turn autoattack back on
- Flurry: Right, fast weapon, crits more + hits more. Guess what this will do to your flurry

 

Blazingwater

Ah...If only I could kick him. My guild's a very casual guild, and at the moment we're looking for raiders that can raid our times, are friendly, and have ok-decent gear. The only reason someone would get a /gkick would be because they were being completely rude and such. Our GM is a resto shaman, and one of her good friends that's she's known from basically the begining of when she played WoW is the shaman class leader (enhance actually). My class leader has the right spec and gear and such (minus the hunter PvP gear (agil instead of str)), but still has 1 +hit gem I believe...

So, I'm stuck with the newbie. All I can do now is to try and work him to be viable on the damage meters. I've actually gotton him to use slow/slow on one raid through the trash because I've been pushing him so much. Thing is he really made me look like an asshole in the process.

 

Malan

Well he's wrong about the Flurry uptime anyways because the dagger will be consuming the charges faster than he can produce them.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Blazingwater

Now to pund that in his head...

Oh, and on another note, it seems like we have another enhance shaman my GM is looking to try on one of our kz runs. Sad part is he has a fast OH, hit gems, etc... Let's see if this one will cooperate. It's amazing how many enhance shaman there are out there that don't know how to play their class to the fullest.

Excuse me while I try to make a minion.

 

• Raut

This is what's wrong:
- Spec: Concussion? Toughness? WTF? His spec is pretty random at best.
- Gems: Hit gems are just stupid along with using AP gems over str. Wrong meta.
- Weapons: As stated, the fast OH is pure failure.
- Enchants: GG AP enchant on bracers, AC on cloak and +9 stam on boots.
- Trinkets: [Romulo's Poison Vial] is just bad.

Baby, you can hold my balls.

13:17 < Kalroth> gays on men tv? I love that channel

 

Malan

Its really not amazing at all though. The mechanics of this game and this class in particular are very counter intuitive in many ways. If you don't puzzle out the probabilities involved than something like DWing daggers can look pretty appealing.

I take a pretty soft approach when I see people on my server or in a BG doing things "incorrectly" and I try to give them some help if they haven't ever read any of this stuff. If someone researches and just chooses to ignore it, than yah at that point I'll label them as idiots.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Skrummel

Hi I'm new to the forums.


Tried to use the search tool but couldn't find what I was looking for.

This is my shaman:

The World of Warcraft Armory

I know I'm missing relic and another trinket :P


Here's my question:

As you can see on my items, I have some armor ignore, which I, before reading the OP, thought would be good, but the op states that it isn't all that good, except if you get near unobtainable amount of armor ignore.

I have 392 as is, and wondering how much armor ignore is the OP talking about?

And how much armor ignore matches haste?

Through items I have access to(but haven't dropped yet or missing badges for), I can get it to about 800, which coupled with executioner would be around 1600 when it procs.

So how much is optimal, and should I focus more on haste rating than armor ignore?

 

Rhaegal

Entirely possible. I did add a lot to the buff page, though, because my guild runs extremely heavy physical DPS, and we stack all sorts of things. We almost always have a Survival Hunter, always have imp BS and LotP and often Improved Judgment of Crusader and Sanctity Aura (though I can't remember if those are options in the sim), and obviously CoR. We only have one rogue, and he only raids occasionally, so our primary melee group tends to be more along the lines of: Enh Shaman + Ret Paladin + Feral Druid + Arms Warrior + Fury Warrior, so Blood Frenzy is up, too. I think I also logged out with a few PvP pieces (trinkets, mainly) on when you would have been armorying me, so add the effects of a [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Shard of Contempt]. Would all of those things plus new weapons add up to the 300 DPS difference between my calculations and yours? I don't know. I'm not saying I didn't mess up my calculations, just that I checked them 3 or 4 times every time I ran it, and if it's wrong it's because I don't know how to use it.

Anyway, my original observation hasn't really been addressed, and I'm still curious if anyone else can reproduce it with their gear. Specifically, does the DPS difference between [Dragonstrike] and [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] become larger when going from a 2.6 speed OH to a 2.5 speed?

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

Toots Hepcat

You're a casual guild. You got to live with folks like this.

He's not THAT bad, though. A slow offhand is dumb, but not as bad as a slow mainhand -- he'd maybe gain 7% dps by getting a slow offhand with the exact same stats. His hit rating gems really bug me, but considering maybe 1% of shamans truly understand hit rating I can't hate on them.

The thing that bug me the most is, he specced into Elemental and didn't get reverberation.

All told, I'd say he's doing 85-90% of the dps he COULD be doing with some theorycraft under his belt and 75% of the dps he could be doing if he had actively geared to the theory. Not ideal, but probably not enough to hold back your progression. I say you show him some WWS parses of theorycrafters at the same gear level and contrast them with his. Have him de-equip his offhand and see what his Flurry/UR uptime is. And if he still insists on playing his way, let him. Better to run a 25 man with a few misfits than not run it all due to lack of interest.

 

Toots Hepcat

You're missunderstanding the OP -- armor ignore is ALWAYS good, at least until you get a few thousand of it. The section at hand is just saying you'd need a whole freaking lot of it to make the Executioner chant better than mongoose. This doesn't mean AI is bad, it means that Mongoose is better than Executioner.

As for "going for haste vs AI," if you know your EP values you just pick the item that has the highest value, you never "go for" any other stat. How much IA is worth one haste? Depends on your gear. KNOW YOUR EP, and you know the answer.

Haste is good, because your autoattacks his faster, which in addition decreases the lag between windfuries and increases your proc rate for some chants and abilities. AI is good because it makes all of your damage more effective. Both are good pretty much forever; e.g. they do have caps but it is impossible to reach them.

I would never say no to either if they added up to higher EP. Nor would I take either one of them if I had a piece with higher EP but NO AI or haste. Thus I have about 200 AI, and about 25 haste.

 

Malan

No, that's not what it says at all. It says that the executioner enchant is about equal to Mongoose and only better when you have a lot of Armor Penetration. This doesn't speak at all about what the value of armor penetration on gear is.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06