There's no +hit "goal" other than 9% including talents... which can be reached with only talents. Once you have that, you don't need more. It will always have some value until you're capped (which you shouldn't ever be), but as stated elsewhere in this thread repeatedly, that value is lower than that of any other stat. Get rid of all your hit and crit gems and replace them with +8 str, and you'll see a noticeable boost to your DPS. Our DPS is completely different from that of rogues, and should not be compared side-by-side in regards to misses.
Of course, you could have just searched the tread for any of the other times people have asked this exact question.
Thank you for your answer, and your lesson in forum searching too. Sorry - I had done a quick search but just seemed to find a lot of the theorycrafting that left me as confused as when I'd started.
Nice work destroying your damage there with your gems! ^^
Really, i don't get why people compare apples to oranges all the time and think they are correct. You...are...not...a...rogue!
If they say that the rogue has tons of +hit more then you, then say "Nice, the rogue knows what he's doing and i know what i'm doing with my class".
Especially at the level of gear you are, the ilevel of it doesn't allow to have AP/str, crit AND hit, thus, you should aim to what it's more beneficial to your dps.
The melee atk table is not as they claim it to be, as you don't check misses first for then check if you can crit/hit/whatever. It's the other way around and as such, as your not at the crit cap, you are not losing damage by not stacking hit as your ultimost stat.
The sim at the front page is your friend and can give you the answers. Try it with a all str/str+crit gem setup and with your current gems and see what get's you more dps. Trust what it shows you.
So you have an idea that what i'm talking about is true...when i applied to my current guild they're still up to down Vashj back in the days and the guild i was at the time didn't even allow me to raid all the time because i was enhance. The guild i applied to, during my apply at their foruns asked me about my hit rating and why it was so low. I explained them the enhance mechanics and showed them reference to where i found that (here^^).
We are farming Illidan for sometime now, and they never refused getting me in or listening to me. They trust me and allow me to go for the gear i say them i need, because they realized i knew what i was doing with my class.
He's not THAT bad, though. A slow offhand is dumb, but not as bad as a slow mainhand -- he'd maybe gain 7% dps by getting a slow offhand with the exact same stats.
I assume you mean a fast weapon?
Originally Posted by Malan
I take a pretty soft approach when I see people on my server or in a BG doing things "incorrectly" and I try to give them some help if they haven't ever read any of this stuff. If someone researches and just chooses to ignore it, than yah at that point I'll label them as idiots.
I do/have done the same thing. I don't go right up to em and be like "I'm right, you're wrong lolololol!!1!". Whenever I have the time to talk to an enhance shaman, I'll point him to this place, and tell him he could be doing so much more with his gear. Sad thing is that some of them just don't listen.
On another note (a bit random one too), do you guys know how much dps the 4 piece bonus of the Gladiator's set adds? Or it's EP value? I'm not looking for that to use, but I'm a bit curious.
I noticed on the main page at the T6 gear value , the value of AP'sEP is missing, is it stilll 1 EP? Also aglilty value didnt note whether kings is taken into account.
Also it seems that from what is shown, the value of hit increases as your weapon/armor gets better(guessing due to white damage being more significant) and the value of crit drops. Is it possible to reach a gear stage where per point, hit is better than crit?
If it is possible, what would be the hit cap for an enhancement shaman?
I noticed on the main page at the T6 gear value , the value of AP'sEP is missing, is it stilll 1 EP? Also aglilty value didnt note whether kings is taken into account.
Also it seems that from what is shown, the value of hit increases as your weapon/armor gets better(guessing due to white damage being more significant) and the value of crit drops. Is it possible to reach a gear stage where per point, hit is better than crit?
If it is possible, what would be the hit cap for an enhancement shaman?
The AP's EP is always 1, all EP values are normalized to this point, making strength always worth 2 EP (2.2 with kings)
Well just read the text and not only look at the numbers and even if you only look at the numbers you could see 2.2 for strength which clearly says all values are including BoK:
These values were contributed by forum member Sebudai based on an end-game T6 gear set, essentially with best-in-slot items for all slots. These should be viewed as a rough estimate for shaman entering T6 content, and include Blessing of Kings.
Just guessing at your second question, if you are critcapped than hit is better than crit and if you ever reach that point your hitcap will be at 28%.
Grognaz had written an addon that tracks the intervall between 2 wf-proccs and got few interesting values...
Some other shamans tested this addon as well and all got minimum intercalls < 3sec...
Either that addon has a mistake in it (dunno, I didnt test it yet) or the wf-cd is reduceable by haste
Maybe you wanna test it, too, and get few reliable conclusions out of that ^^
Having discussed this briefly via PMs with Malan and Disquette, it seems clear to me that the equation in section 3.2.3 in the first post is...off. Whether it arrives at the correct values for UR uptime or not, there are parts that seem wholly misguided to me. However, I'm hardly the man to fix it, as it surpasses my skill in mathematics.
In that spirit, I thought I'd throw it out to the masses to see if someone can figure out what's going on, and more importantly, how to fix it.
Here's the calculations as they stand:
UR uptime = (1-(1-Crit Rate)^HitsPer10Sec)*(1-Miss Rate)
HitsPer10sec = ((10 * Num Wpns)/Wpn Spd)*(1-Miss Rate) + (10 * Num Wpns)/(Wpn Spd*1-0.3((1-(Crit Rate*Flurry)))*Windfury+1)
Windfury = 0.2 if Wpn Spd > 3, else 0.36*Wpn Spd/3
Flurry = (1-(1-Crit Rate)^3)*(1-Miss Rate)
My concern boils down to the inclusion of (1-Miss Rate) in what looks like a calculation of expected hits from white damage swings in a 10 second interval, which would ignore Miss Rate entirely thanks to the 1-roll system.
I confess to being at a loss, so any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
I've got a question on armor penetration, it seems from the comments that armor penetration scales better the more you have of it. I had always assumed that it would just increase damage by a certain % so, why is executioner suddenly better than mongoose if you have a theoretically a ton of armor penetration?
Also, what is the crit cap? I used to know, but I took a long break and can't remember hehe.
I've got a question on armor penetration, it seems from the comments that armor penetration scales better the more you have of it. I had always assumed that it would just increase damage by a certain % so, why is executioner suddenly better than mongoose if you have a theoretically a ton of armor penetration?
Also, what is the crit cap? I used to know, but I took a long break and can't remember hehe.
That would be true if the damage mitigation of armor was a linear function, but it is not. There's plenty of useful threads, particularly the prot warrior compendium, that discuss it in detail.
As for crit cap, it varies in relation to your hit and expertise rating. In any case, it's nothing to be concerned with in terms of gearing.
The DW white attack table against a boss (attacking from behind to remove block and parry) is:
I've got a question on armor penetration, it seems from the comments that armor penetration scales better the more you have of it. I had always assumed that it would just increase damage by a certain % so, why is executioner suddenly better than mongoose if you have a theoretically a ton of armor penetration?
Also, what is the crit cap? I used to know, but I took a long break and can't remember hehe.
Just a quick sim test with default values, but increasing crit to 30% (to try and diminish the benefit of mongoose), still had 2x mongoose better than exe/mon at values of ignore armor from 250-1000, only 1000 hours, and with boss armor at 7700
Now drop armor down to 4100 (typical well geared arena clothie)
Ignore Armor 2x Mongoose DPS Exe/Mon DPS
250 1539 1533
500 1570 1553
750 1602 1573
1000 1621 1584
1250 1622 1585
Frankly, I'd be curious to see what values would even give EXE a significant boost. It makes more sense in arena, where crits are highly mitigated, but otherwise, I just don't see the justification for Executioner, at least via simulator.
"Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2 EP (2.2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Agility = 1.8 EP (2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Crit Rating = 2 EP
Hit Rating = 1.4 EP (explanation below at VIII.4 Itemization - Hit Rating)
Haste Rating = 1.48 EP (explanation below at VIII.3 Itemization - Haste Rating)
Armor Penetration = 0.28 EP
Expertise Rating = see the Expertise section below for an explanation"
Haste rating on items comes in flavours of about 30 typically, Arrow-fall from Jan'alai has 30. So 30 x 1.48 ep = 44.4 ep
Shadowtooth Trollskin cuirass from Jan'alai has 210 armor ignore. So is it 210 x 0.28 = 58.8 ep?
I know the other stats influence the overall ep but do I understand the ep values correct here?
Haste rating on items comes in flavours of about 30 typically, Arrow-fall from Jan'alai has 30. So 30 x 1.48 ep = 44.4 ep
Shadowtooth Trollskin cuirass from Jan'alai has 210 armor ignore. So is it 210 x 0.28 = 58.8 ep?
I know the other stats influence the overall ep but do I understand the ep values correct here?
Yes, but keep in mind that YOUR EP values may differ, based on your gear. You should always run the simulator, get the EP values for YOUR gear, as what you happen to have picked up, may have very different values from the 'standard' values. I.e. if you have 35% crit and no +hit, hit rating will have a very significant EP Value.
My concern boils down to the inclusion of (1-Miss Rate) in what looks like a calculation of expected hits from white damage swings in a 10 second interval, which would ignore Miss Rate entirely thanks to the 1-roll system.
You're correct, but the whole equation looks pretty wonky to me. Flurry is way off.
Taking another stab:
AvgWpnSpd = (((sum of speeds of all weapons)/ number of weapons) / 1 + (.3 * FlurryUptime)) / 1 + (Haste Rating / 15.7) / (the affect of any other percentile speed reducing abilities such as berzerking, bloodlust, mongoose, etc) Yeah, you need to know FlurryUptime to accurately compute FlurryUptime, just estimate for now.
AASwingsPer10sec=(10 * Num Wpns)/AvgWpnSpd
SSSwingsPer10sec= 2
WFSwingsPer10sec= 2 x (10s / (3s+AvgWFLag))
SwingsPer10sec = AASwingsPer10sec + SSSwingsPer10Sec + WFSwingsPer10sec I don't know the equation for AvgWFLag. You can assume somewhere between 1 and 3 procs per 10)
ChanceToNotCritIn10s: (1-Crit Rate)^SwingsPer10Sec
UR uptime = 1-ChanceToNotCritIn10s
TimeFor3AASwings= Min ((3 * AvgWeaponSpd / Num Weapons), 10)
SwingsPer3AASwings = (10/SwingsPer10s) * TimeFor3AASwings
ChanceToNotCritWhileFlurryIsUp=(1-Crit Rate)^SwingsPer3AASwings)
Flurry uptime= 1-ChanceToNotCritWhileFlurryIsUp
Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 03/18/08 at 6:23 PM.
No math needed. Neither Miss chance not dodge chance has any affect on crit chance due to the attack table, so yes -- the inclusion of that clause of the equation is incorrect.
On white attacks, yes. But on WF procs and SS, both do (though only dodge in practice since we're all hit capped on yellows).
And flurry uptime should take into account expected crits from WF, so it should still be pertinent, I'm just not sure how to translate all that into a closed formula.
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
Yes, but keep in mind that YOUR EP values may differ, based on your gear. You should always run the simulator, get the EP values for YOUR gear, as what you happen to have picked up, may have very different values from the 'standard' values. I.e. if you have 35% crit and no +hit, hit rating will have a very significant EP Value.
Frankly, I'd be curious to see what values would even give EXE a significant boost. It makes more sense in arena, where crits are highly mitigated, but otherwise, I just don't see the justification for Executioner, at least via simulator.
As far as I can tell it takes full BT/Hyjal gear and a low-armor mob to make mongoose/exe better. Exe beats out mongoose for me on a sundered mob with 6200 armor, but just barely.
I was wondering if anyone has any idea of how much a prot warrior's threat is increased by having an enhancement shaman in the group. This would be a 2nd enh shaman, our melee dps already has one.
We have just cleared BT and our dps (warlocks/mages) are already near being threat capped with none of them having 4piece t6. Our MT is good, but with our locks pulling close to 2k dps on some fights, it has become a general concern about threat when they should get 4piece t6.
If someone knows a link to a post directed at this or could supply some input; I would appreciate it.
Having discussed this briefly via PMs with Malan and Disquette, it seems clear to me that the equation in section 3.2.3 in the first post is...off. Whether it arrives at the correct values for UR uptime or not, there are parts that seem wholly misguided to me. However, I'm hardly the man to fix it, as it surpasses my skill in mathematics.
In that spirit, I thought I'd throw it out to the masses to see if someone can figure out what's going on, and more importantly, how to fix it.
Here's the calculations as they stand:
UR uptime = (1-(1-Crit Rate)^HitsPer10Sec)*(1-Miss Rate)
HitsPer10sec = ((10 * Num Wpns)/Wpn Spd)*(1-Miss Rate) + (10 * Num Wpns)/(Wpn Spd*1-0.3((1-(Crit Rate*Flurry)))*Windfury+1)
Windfury = 0.2 if Wpn Spd > 3, else 0.36*Wpn Spd/3
Flurry = (1-(1-Crit Rate)^3)*(1-Miss Rate)
My concern boils down to the inclusion of (1-Miss Rate) in what looks like a calculation of expected hits from white damage swings in a 10 second interval, which would ignore Miss Rate entirely thanks to the 1-roll system.
I confess to being at a loss, so any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
Just throwing in my 2cents here to say that I agree with Daler's assessment. Here's a repost of my PM to him, in part, on this topic:
first off, the problem is that the exponent in the first formula shouldn't be "hits per second", it should be "attacks per second", because crit is (mostly) independent of hit.
secondly, the flurry rate also should have no "miss" term in it, for the same reason.
thirdly, since yellow damage is on a 2-roll system, you should technically have a dodge component (and thus expertise as well) in the flurry calculations, because a dodge *can* push a would-have-been crit off the yellow damage attack table. Ironic that white attacks are "better" at proc'ing flurry than yellow attacks, no? :-) stinking 2 roll systems, haha.
fourthly, I can't say it's wrong, because I haven't thought it through, but I don't know how the windfury component was deduced. It's a neatly acting formula though, so if it's right, mad props to whomever thought of that way of expressing it. I don't know why it's not showing 2 chances to proc flurry per windfury occurrence though. It looks like it's just showing one.
fifthly, in the denominator of the 2nd equation: hitsper10sec, think about what would happen if your crit rate goes up...:
crit goes up, so 1-crit*flurry goes down. To simplify, call that "Y"
Y goes down, so the equation:
Speed - 0.3*Y*wf +1 goes up. to simply, call that "Z"
"Z" goes up, so the second term of "Hitsper10sec":
10*NumWpns / Z goes down.
I don't know why if your crit rate goes up, you'd expect a decrease in the number of flurried attacks. This equation seems horribly wrong so far.
sixthly, where is stormstrike in all of this?
This equation might somehow, through things I'm missing, end up being right. But if so, it's in ways that I'm not seeing. I'd probably prefer to redo this thing from scratch, tbh.
I obviously haven't taken the time to redo the equations, but unless I'm missing something, I think that they need some attention.
Grognaz had written an addon that tracks the intervall between 2 wf-proccs and got few interesting values...
Some other shamans tested this addon as well and all got minimum intercalls < 3sec...
Either that addon has a mistake in it (dunno, I didnt test it yet) or the wf-cd is reduceable by haste
Maybe you wanna test it, too, and get few reliable conclusions out of that ^^
Greets,
Juzin
PS sry for my English
I would suggest that before anyone does haste testing
1) use a shaman without any haste gear (and use a PTR toon if you have it, or burn some gold on respec'ing to not use flurry).
2) Beat on a servant in the blasted lands for 30 min
3) Find out if any WF magically happened under 3 sec from the last
I personally haven't done this, but I was involved in the sludge of a thread in the official forums. My rebuttal to this hypothesis, and his rebuttals in turn, can be found here: WoW Forums -> WF Cooldown and Procrate Debunked
I was wondering if anyone has any idea of how much a prot warrior's threat is increased by having an enhancement shaman in the group. This would be a 2nd enh shaman, our melee dps already has one.
We have just cleared BT and our dps (warlocks/mages) are already near being threat capped with none of them having 4piece t6. Our MT is good, but with our locks pulling close to 2k dps on some fights, it has become a general concern about threat when they should get 4piece t6.
If someone knows a link to a post directed at this or could supply some input; I would appreciate it.
Short version: Assuming unlimited rage, Windfury Totem provides ~40 TPS. If it's a fight where the tank is rage limited, it could be significantly more, but that will vary quite a lot depending on the fight and the tank's gear and can't really be estimated.
03/18/08, 12:31 PM
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