Ah. I just saw a bunch of gibberish in German and thought it was something ninja introduced. Haven't seen it mentioned in this thread before. Hoax, shit addon or nazi overlords trying to overthrow enhance shamans?

Flawed testing. They got WF procs less than three seconds apart while wearing haste gear, and concluded that it was because the haste reduced the cooldown. Later testing showed that it was possible to get procs less than three seconds apart with zero haste (linked to by Disquette above), and showed that there was no correlation between haste rating and shortest gap between WFs. The gap between hits and the resulting WF proc is nowhere close to constant (glancing at some logs, I see gaps from .2 seconds to .9 seconds), so lag satisfactorily explains why this is possible.

Question about Yo!'s simulator. Does it still value the Dragonstrike proc a lot higher than its supposed value? Because when i run the sim I keep on getting Dragonstrike + Rising Tide > Rising Tide + Syphon, yet RT+Syphon is considered the better pair.

(And i hope this is actually a legit question)

The proc rate was adjusted a while back and seems to be much more accurate now.

have a question about the simulator too regarding the input stats for hit% .. just input my armory/ingame hit: 9.45% (149) or WITH talents: 18.45% ? because my hitchance is about 91% with talents against lvl73 but the sim suggests a fairly high 1.28 (and even higher before some items with 1.45) value for hitrating and i thought reaching the hitcap is almost useless for us.

for example take my [Worgen Claw Necklace] against my [Mithril Chain of Heroism]. with the sims suggested values the Worgen Claw Necklace is better then the Mithril Chain of Heroism but for my understanding Mithril Chain of Heroism gives me more (especially with kings)

i know my gear is ... not so good im just collecting for a few weaks because i was resto before... the trinkets and rings are the best i can get in this time.. . maybe someone can overlook my char and give me a quick estimation if i had made some big errors in itemization/gems/enchants.
thank you very much

P.S. hope you understand me..english is not my primary lang

I have Exactly the same concern. I know the procc was fixed a while back, and I also remember when Dragonstrike was considered the best MH. Then this was changed and Dragosntrike was second option in MH slot after RT or Syphon..I didnt pay a lot of attention back then cause I thought I'll never reach Ilidan hehe. Anyway, now that I have and that I am first in line for the next Rising Tide and Syphon to drop, I did some calculations even if I thought a pair of Syphones or RT+Syphons would be the best as the OP say.

The results of the simulator were quite disturbing though, because Dragonstrike+ RT or Dragonstrike+ Syphon consistently performs better than RT+Syphon or Syphon+ RT....even more so, Dragosntrike + Merciless Gladiator Pummeler is almost the same as RT+Syphon or Syphon+ RT..

So taking into account Rhaegans post a page back comparing Dragonstrike with the sunwell fists that also showed Dragosntrike performing oustandingly, are we missing something here??

Is Dragosntrike really better than (or as good as) Rising Tide or Syphon for the MH?

or

Is the Simulator somehow giving wrong results?

or

am I missing something here? :P

Also, are RT and Syphon really the same or is Syphon better? (providing the perform the same without taking into account the Syphon's procc)

PS: Actual Data from the Sims for my base stats. ( AP:1502, Hit: 22.13, Crit:32.61, Ex:2, Haste:0, AP:192, STR:271, AGI:277)
[Dragonstrike] + [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]----------->1374 DPS
[Dragonstrike] + [Rising Tide] -------------------------------->1381 DPS
[Dragonstrike] + [Syphon of the Nathrezim]------------------>1376 DPS
[Rising Tide] + [Syphon of the Nathrezim]-------------------->1373 DPS
[Syphon of the Nathrezim] + [Rising Tide] ------------------->1375 DPS
[Syphon of the Nathrezim] + [Syphon of the Nathrezim]----->1379 DPS

PSS: On a side note, how do you guys input the procc of the Syphon? I think most of the people just ignore it but playing with the search tool I found out someone saying ist the equivalent of 3000-4000 dmg per 5 min fight or 2350 dmg in a particular 3mins teron fight if DW syphons, so around 6 dps per syphon...That wouldnt change the fact that Dragosntrike is the best or just the same as the best (apart from S3) option for MH, will just make Syphon>>>RT (again contradicting OP)

Sorry for this long post mates, just wanted to know what is the best option before chosing one combo or the other, and maby helping the community by pointing what could be a discrepancy on the simulator, wich is a anyhow a wonderful wonderful tool (special thanks to YO!)

Whenever I've generated EP values for myself at various gear levels, I've always found 1 hit rating to be worth more than 1 AP, so I wouldn't call 1.28 fairly high. Mine generally hovers between 1.3 and 1.5, not straying very much from the values listed as "generic" EP values in the OP. For me, the two necks are identical (I think the chain pulls ahead by 1 EP) with kings, with [Worgen Claw Necklace] pulling slightly ahead by 5-6 EP when I don't have kings. Your mileage may vary, depending on what the sim gives you for agility values.

Did you see my attempt to restate them?

There are a number of obvious problems with that the old equation -- for example, the effect of Flurry on weapon speed isn't calculated as Speed * (1-.3), it's calculated as Speed / (1 + .3). And the Flurry Uptime calculation doesn't take into account WF or SS mechanics at all, even though these may count for 60% of all crits.

The real key here is Average Speed, something which it should be easy to calculate in-game but is a bit harder to flatten because it feeds back to itself, and the number of windfuries per 10s (related to the average windfury lag, something which also should be easy to calculate in-game).

Just wait the 3-6 weeks for patch and buy badge main hand, and grab the offhand off SW25 trash.

The only problem I can see is that dodge rate and expertise aren't taken into account. As Disquette pointed out:
I'd imagine that takes effect on both the WF and SS contribution to flurry and UR uptime.

Yes well I might as well wait for the Wotlk and of course get better weapons...point being 2.4 is not out yet, things may or may not change, and I would like to know what to do now...

Anyway, how do you know the badge main hand is better if the simulator may or may not be giving accurate results? Yo himself stated 2 pages back that "with this settings they are almost identical"...

So we have the same question again, if Dragonstrike is similar to the badge main hand and badge main hand+ off hand are just below S3 arena, were does this put the Rising Tide, the Syphon etc on the equation?

It may perfectly be that Dragonstrike + Syphon or DW Syphon are better if not equivalent to the badges MH+OH, so we would save 150+ badges right there, or the DKP equivalent if you want to look it the other way around, and maintaining the Dragonstrike would save both badges and DKP's

Also, getting the Rising Tide would be the wrong choice for both the MH and the OH...

I do need some specific answers mostly because telling my CL that I am passing on an (supposed) upgrade because in "3-6 weeks they will be better stuff" just won't do it....Furthermore, he also reads this forums (hi crazy Scotsman!) and at this moment believes the OP statement of both Rising Tide and Syphon being better than the Dragonstrike, and any combination of those 2 being equivalent to DW Syphons...wich is not clear to be true at all seeing some of the simulation results for me and the other concerned posters

Thanks to all the people that took the time to read this again too long of a post

EDIT:Spelling

I wasn't aware that WF used a two roll system -- thought it was just SS, but I guess that makes sense.

There's also the issue that if the MH swing of an SS is dodged, the offhand is ALSO dodged.

DodgeChance= .065 (or whatever)
YellowHitChance= 1 - Min(DodgeChance - .0025 * Expertise, 0)
MHSSSwingsPer10= YellowHitChance
OHSSSwingsPer10= MHSSSwingsPer10 * YellowHitChance
SSSwingsPer10sec= YellowHitChance + YellowHitChance^2
WFSwingsPer10sec= 2 * (10s / (3s+AvgWFLag)) * YellowHitChance

Kudos for wanting to do the math yourself. However, if you've used Yo's simulator, which all enh shaman should, you'd notice in the AEP section of the first tab an EP -> DPS value for 1 point of AP.

Since 1 point of AP is always 1 EP, you can use that relation to convert the EP values for the rest of the stats to expected DPS contributions per stat point.

For example, using the default values on Yo's sim (I just went to the sim, set hours to 1k, clicked calculate AEP and run) results in an AP -> EP -> DPS conversion of 1:1:0.2569. Since strength is always valued at 2.2 EP, 1 point of STR = 2.2*0.2569 = 0.56518 DPS.

Just make sure to use your current stats, raid buffs, etc., and you'll be good to go.

Someone beat me to reply to this post. See post above.

That's because it isn't yet possible to calculate. Our DPS is a feedback system, meaning that the results of one part of the equation feed another part of the equation which, in part, feeds back into the first. It should be possible to reduce this to an expression, but it will be a) terribly complex and b) will relies on two or three equations we haven't figured out yet.

If you use Yo's simulator -- which you should -- simulating for EP values also calculates the EP->DPS conversion factor. Values vary wildly from .2 to .3 DPS/EP or more. This variation is at least partly a factor of weapon speed -- slower weapons convert EP to DPS at a higher rate than faster ones.

Many of us use .25 as a back-of-the-envelope conversion factor, simply because 4 AP = 1 DPS is easy to calculate. A 40 EP upgrade? 10 more dps.

For the guys with DS/Syphon/RT problems...

I guess you guys didn't understand the hole point of AEP system.

During all this thread we have been trying to get people away from boxed answers, thus directing then to the sim or the formulas, so they could find their specific answers to each specific case. People didn't give straight answers, basically because they would be "bad" answers, as each specific case is unique and totally dif from each other.

The AEPs at front page represents the whereabouts of each stage of gear you should be in, but by no means i ever saw any of the theorycrafters in here stating that you should stick with tha till death.

Those numbers and information means that with the normally acquired itens, with the normally used gems and with the normally used enchants, you should most of the time be around those numbers.

The statement of the weapons is as such. Most of the time you can follow that and you have a great chance of doing right. Though, we have the sim for the exact purpose of showing you what's the best thing for your case.

The sim will show what it looks like at the gear you have atm. For me, the exact same sim you are using shows me that 2x Syphons are a 14ish DPS upgrade from my current DS+Syphon. And the exact same sim shows me that using the 2 new badges weapons nets me a 27ish DPS upgrade.

Neither the sim, nor the theory as it stands for now at least, is broken. They just show what's best for you at the time you do the sim, with your current gear.

that's what i'm saying. The sim shows me that with my gear 2xSyphon is an upgrade over DS/Syphon and the 2 new badge weapons are upgrades on top of that.

I can't see your concern on the sim. It shows me that with my gear, they are upgrade and as you said it, with yours, they are not.

Sorry, english not being my first language might be making me miss what your point is. o.o

ok. Let me make sure I get this right.

In essence, 1 EP = .2569 DPS.

So, using the T5 values from the first post:

1 AGI = 1.8*.2569 = .46242 DPS.

Meaning, a mongoose enchant should increase DPS by 55.4904 (approx. since the slight speed increase isn't included)
(120*.46242 = 55.4904).

Am I understanding this correctly?

Also, how would you calculate damage into dps? I mean both damage from an effect (such at +150FR from Deathfrost) and +X to weapon damage? I don't want to make the mistake of assuming DPS = DMG.

Kinda. For determining Mongoose's DPS contribution, it'd be easier to run Yo's sim with and without the enchant for 5-10k hours, multiple times for each setup, average them out, and then subtract the difference. You can't expect 120 agi to be up 100% of the time, so that conversion is too simplistic for a proc effect like Mongoose.

As for the latter two questions, it's fairly simple for the plain +X to weapon damage. Let's assume you toss on +2 weapon damage on one ring. For each weapon, that would translate to 2 damage/weapon speed = Y DPS.

For something like Deathfrost, we'd first need to know it's proc rate to calculate the expected DPS benefit. I don't know if something's been done on the PTR to work that out, and you'll probably have to wait for 2.4 to go live for people to start testing it thoroughly (not to mention it could change between now and then). But the basic methodology for something like that is 150 damage * expected number of procs/unit time. Then you can convert whatever that is into DPS.

E.g., let's assume it has a 1 PPM proc rate. So enchanted on 1 weapon, you're looking at 150 damage/60 secs, or 2.5 DPS. That's overly simplistic, ignores haste effects and what not, but that's the general idea.

Since this change made it to live, might wanna put something in page 1 about it?

From my testing on the PTR, /run DestroyTotem(4) did not return any mana for destroying the totem. With that information, what advantage would it provide including it in the macro then?

Thanks for your input TK. I was, like Rhaegan, concerned on how the sim takes into account th DS procc. Anyway, just out of curiosity, for how much were those convos better? And also, do you input the Syphon procc in anyway into the sim, consider it gives around 6dps as I did, or just ignore it altoguether?

Thanks again