Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 320

Rapparee · 03/19/08, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Seidule

Since this change made it to live, might wanna put something in page 1 about it?

What do you mean this change is live?
As far as I know, I'll still be raiding 2.3 style tonight.

My tests of it, showed no mana returns on the PTR, but I only did one night of tests. It was a crappy night, whole thing was laggy, I don't have 100% confidence in my tests, so I didn't post the results here. I hope this change goes through, leather wearers will get a decent benefit from it. More important personally is that I'll benefit from it as resto. So I hope it goes through, but I disagree with claiming it as fact, until it is fact.

Edit: for those wondering about Syphon, sometimes when the results are so close that you beg others to tell you there's a definitive answer; use the age-old wisdom of WDF.
Whatever Drops First - solves the problems of all these weapons are so close, I don't know what the RNG holds for my fate. You know your raiding guild better than we do. If you win syphon this week, and 2.4 comes out on Tuesday, and you buy all new badge weapon, then by some miracle Mounting Vengeance drops.... we can't answer if your raid is best served by someone else taking the MV instead of you. We don't know what every melee dps in your guild is currently wielding. No one can know that the very next tuesday your guild will finish a warglaive set. In fact we don't know if your guild has some loot distribution that requires you to sacrifice a duck anytime you get a mainhand upgrade. If so, get some ducks, you know that new weapons are coming.

promdates · 03/19/08, 6:18 PM

Originally Posted by Nacht

From my testing on the PTR, /run DestroyTotem(4) did not return any mana for destroying the totem. With that information, what advantage would it provide including it in the macro then?

If I recall right, I too was worried that it wasn't returning any mana when I ran the DestroyTotem(4) command. But for some reason the combat log was registering a mana return for killing the totem. Sadly with the PTR down, it's virtually impossible to go back and double check this unless it works this way on the TTR.

Kelvari · 03/19/08, 7:03 PM

Everyone I come into contact with in my guild believes that my buffs are just icing on the cake, no more than AI, GotW, Fort, etc. and that i should be able to do as much damage as any pure dps class. I've tried explaining things and showing that I am a buff class and bring much more to a group than other buffs from other classes, and that when considering the dps i bring into the raid, you have to consider how much i increase the damage of those getting my buffs and that my straight dps isn't an accurate representation of all that I bring to the raid. I don't know what I can do to prove this beyond any objection, and question, any shred of doubt, and was hoping that you could clarify this, and validate it in such a way, so that I could post it and prove that my dps and buffs combined is at or better than a single person doing somewhat more pure dps than me.

vorda · 03/20/08, 12:07 AM

Easiest solution is to plug your melee group into their spreadsheets and calculate their total dps with a copy of GenericRogue (so 4x rogue 1x warrior) and then do the same with you + 3 rogue + warrior. (all the spreadsheets have UR, WF and possibly Bloodlust under the buff section)

If that doesnt work, we'll give you the same advice we've given every "I raid with a bunch of retards because casual seems to be a synonym for retardism in some guilds"-post: get another guild.
One with people who have an idea of what they are doing.

Disquette · 03/20/08, 9:27 AM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

You're correct, but the whole equation looks pretty wonky to me. Flurry is way off.

Taking another stab:

AvgWpnSpd = (((sum of speeds of all weapons)/ number of weapons) / 1 + (.3 * FlurryUptime)) / 1 + (Haste Rating / 15.7) / (the affect of any other percentile speed reducing abilities such as berzerking, bloodlust, mongoose, etc)
Yeah, you need to know FlurryUptime to accurately compute FlurryUptime, just estimate for now.

AASwingsPer10sec=(10 * Num Wpns)/AvgWpnSpd
SSSwingsPer10sec= 2
WFSwingsPer10sec= 2 x (10s / (3s+AvgWFLag))
SwingsPer10sec = AASwingsPer10sec + SSSwingsPer10Sec + WFSwingsPer10sec
I don't know the equation for AvgWFLag. You can assume somewhere between 1 and 3 procs per 10)

ChanceToNotCritIn10s: (1-Crit Rate)^SwingsPer10Sec
UR uptime = 1-ChanceToNotCritIn10s

TimeFor3AASwings= Min ((3 * AvgWeaponSpd / Num Weapons), 10)
SwingsPer3AASwings = (10/SwingsPer10s) * TimeFor3AASwings
ChanceToNotCritWhileFlurryIsUp=(1-Crit Rate)^SwingsPer3AASwings)
Flurry uptime= 1-ChanceToNotCritWhileFlurryIsUp

Solid start on this, imo, though it still needs some work to be accurate. One example is the AvgWFLag, as you acknowledged. The other is expertise/dodge. Thanks Toots.

Illundai · 03/20/08, 11:02 AM

Last night someone approached me asking if it was true in 2.4 Drums of Battle no longer stack with Heroism/Bloodlust. I said that I wasn't sure, that I had done no additional testing.

According to this patch note:

General

* Non-self % based haste spells will no longer stack with each other.

That may actually be true. Anyone that perhaps did some testing on this?

Aximous · 03/20/08, 11:35 AM

Based on that note they should stack since from that two only bloodlust is % based.

Illundai · 03/20/08, 11:53 AM

I'll be damned, that's what I get for not having any wake up coffee. I'll just let it be there so no one comes in and asks the same (stupid) question. By the way, I went ahead and used the new macros posted a few pages back to totem twist and it was pretty sweet. I managed to keep up GoA for 7/9 seconds of Windfury, whilst shocking at least once per twist. The new global cooldown really makes twisting easier; which is weird, considering they explicitely said they didn't condone of it, yet they made it easier. Thank you PvP I guess, heh.

• Daler · 03/20/08, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

AvgWpnSpd = (((sum of speeds of all weapons)/ number of weapons) / 1 + (.3 * FlurryUptime)) / 1 + (Haste Rating / 15.7) / (the affect of any other percentile speed reducing abilities such as berzerking, bloodlust, mongoose, etc)

Just to be clear:

AvgWpnSpd = ((MH Spd + OH Spd)/NumWpns) / (1+(0.3*FlurryUptime)) / (1+(HasteRating/15.76)) / (1+(Other % haste increases)

Is that right? It looked like you were missing some parentheses originally. Just want to be sure I've got it right before trying to make sense of this all.

So for a simplified test case let's assume two 2.6 weapons, 0 haste rating, and ignore heroism, etc. Let AvgWpnSpd = X and FlurryUptime = Y.

X = (2.6) / (1 + (0.3 * Y))

Y = 1-((1-Crit Rate)^((10/(20/X + 2 + 2*(10s / (3s+AvgWFLag)))) * MIN((3X/2), 10)))

And upon trying to simplify further, I think my brain blew a fuse.

falonub · 03/20/08, 1:05 PM

Originally Posted by Aximous

Based on that note they should stack since from that two only bloodlust is % based.

Yes, all the haste items we use, aside from bloodlust give a static amount of haste rating depending. Haste pots/Drums of Battle/Dragonspine Trophy increase haste rating, not haste percent per say.

I see the aforementioned change because of PvP, where they changed Power Infusion where it speeds casting by 20%, same with Icy Veins it increases cast speed by 20%.

• Shalas · 03/20/08, 1:53 PM

Converting that to latex and dropping the min (worring about that case doesn't seem useful), we get:
$X = \frac{2.6}{1 + (0.3 * Y)}$

$\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{\frac{30X}{2}}{\frac{20}{X} + 2 + 2*\frac{10s}{3s+AvgWFLag}}}\right)$

Simplifying:
$\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15X}{\frac{20+2X}{X}*\frac{20}{3+AvgWFLag}}}\right)$

$\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+40X}}\right)$

$\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}\right)$

$\huge Y - 1= \left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}$

Let U = Y - 1

$\huge U = \left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3(U + 1)}}}$

$\huge U = \left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1.3 + .3U}}}$

$\LARGE \ln U = \frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1.3 + .3U}}\ln (1-Crit Rate)$

$\LARGE \ln U = \frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)}{400+\frac{104}{1.3 + .3U}}$

$\Large \left(400+\frac{104}{1.3 + .3U}\right)\ln U = 15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)$

$\Large \frac{624+120U}{1.3 + .3U}\ln U = 15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)$

$\frac{624+120(Y-1)}{1.3 + .3(Y-1)}\ln (Y-1) = 15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)$

$\frac{504+120Y}{1+.3Y}\ln (Y-1) = 15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)$

$\frac{33.6+8Y}{1+.3Y}\ln (Y-1) = (3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)$

I have no idea where to go from there, or even if it's going in a useful direction.

Vistol · 03/20/08, 2:34 PM

I'm curious if it would make sense to use a flame shock/frost Shock rotation and allow another player in the raid "steal" the storm strike debuff for a net raid dps increase?

I know there are numerous small damage sources that can eat the charge for a net dps loss (poison vials, lighting capacitors, some hunter pets, ect), and threat could also be a limiting factor. However if these issues do not come into play or are only a minor factor, one would think that letting an elemental shaman with their higher spell damage and better spell damage co-efficient with Lb/CL would result in a net dps gain.

• Daler · 03/20/08, 2:43 PM

Originally Posted by Vistol

I'm curious if it would make sense to use a flame shock/frost Shock rotation and allow another player in the raid "steal" the storm strike debuff for a net raid dps increase?

I know there are numerous small damage sources that can eat the charge for a net dps loss (poison vials, lighting capacitors, some hunter pets, ect), and threat could also be a limiting factor. However if these issues do not come into play or are only a minor factor, one would think that letting an elemental shaman with their higher spell damage and better spell damage co-efficient with Lb/CL would result in a net dps gain.

You don't have to rotate to Fl/Fr. Just start off your normal rotation (Flame/Earth) and there should be enough time on your shock cooldown for an elem shaman to use both charges. Even with an elem subspec, the 5 sec CD is enough to squeeze in a CL and an LB (assuming no one else has that damn romulo vial...but that's a rant for another time).

At the absolute worst, macro a whisper to your elem shaman to let him know when SS is up.

And it's very much appreciated by your elem shaman.

@ Shalas: Many thanks. That's exactly what I was trying to do, but it's been about a decade since I studied math to any degree (god I'm getting old...

).

So now for the AvgWFLag....

Malan · 03/20/08, 2:47 PM

Originally Posted by Nacht

From my testing on the PTR, /run DestroyTotem(4) did not return any mana for destroying the totem.

Did you verify this in the new combat log that no mana was returned?

Nacht · 03/20/08, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Did you verify this in the new combat log that no mana was returned?

Yes. I did a rather extensive test. Never once saw mana return in the combat log. I monitored the in-game log, setting it to "self" and also to "everything" to make sure I wasn't missing anything. Also, I recorded the log and went into the text file. No record of mana return for the macro. There is always a record of mana return for Totemic Call. I even created the following macro to simulate the Totemic Call spell.

/run DestroyTotem(1)
/run DestroyTotem(2)
/run DestroyTotem(3)
/run DestroyTotem(4)

The macro destroyed all four totems without returning any mana. There is no record in the log that the totems are destroyed when the /run command is used. Additionally, it destroyed all 4 totems with no GCD. Totemic Call initiates a 1.5s (not 1.0s) GCD, returns mana, and is recorded in the log.

I still have the combat log file saved in my PTR folder for reference, but I'm at work right now.

Skiace · 03/20/08, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by Dukanull

Just wait the 3-6 weeks for patch and buy badge main hand, and grab the offhand off SW25 trash.

This isn't even a fool proof solution, as my sim results are showing the following:

bt + fist----------1251
dragon + fist----1250
fist + fist---------1249
fist + bt----------1244
dragon + bt------1241
dragon + s2-----1236

(Where "bt" is either siphon or rising tide, and "fist" are the badge reward weapons.)

Having just downed Kael last week (vashj already down), it looks like I should be trying to pick up one of the BT weapons and only the off-hand badge fist.

Rapparee · 03/20/08, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by Skiace

This isn't even a fool proof solution, as my sim results are showing the following:
bt + fist----------1251
dragon + fist----1250
fist + fist---------1249
fist + bt----------1244
dragon + bt------1241
dragon + s2-----1236
(Where "bt" is either siphon or rising tide, and "fist" are the badge reward weapons.)

Having just downed Kael last week (vashj already down), it looks like I should be trying to pick up one of the BT weapons and only the off-hand badge fist.

To be honest, your top 3 numbers are essentially identical. So if you fully trust the simulator, just buy the offhand fist.

If you're health is low and you die a lot, then cross your fingers that rising tide drops and you are able to get it. (this is situational, the simulator can't tell whether you abilities leave you prone to dying a lot)

The simulator doesn't model the syphon proc, my personal numbers say it's worthy of 3 to 5 dps on its own.
So truly your upcoming highest damage weapon situation (if you are strictly relegated to the choices you simulated above) would be Syphon + badge fist in 2.4.

Unless you didn't modiy your stats to include the individual weapons personal stats, such as AP and additional crit rating.

Gehenna · 03/20/08, 4:03 PM

I recently ran two sim that placed Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality combined with S3 offhand as a 5 and 10 DPS respectively increase over S3/S3.

Anyone else had this?

I assume it had to do with the offhand being slower, but I haven't tested it with the weapons reversed.

promdates · 03/20/08, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by Nacht

stuff

I'm pretty sure that I saw it put a [You] Totemic Recall [74] in my combat log when I did the run command. At first I thought that it wasn't but I kept looking and I'm sure it was returning mana. This was also one of the last builds of PTR before it went down. I could have just been seeing things or really high that night. Seems like I'm the only one who's saying its returning mana, so I could very well be wrong at this point.

Unaz · 03/20/08, 5:27 PM

I understand that people wanted to know the value of various pre-2.4 weapons to determine what was an upgrade, but why are dozens of posts being wasted on people who either can't be bothered to run the sim for their own weapon's values, or even worse arguing about something like how Syphon's proc compares to Rising Tide when the season 3 weapons have been shown to out-perform all other weapons currently in the game for us?

Stop fretting about the non 2.4 weapons when you could be getting your season 3 weapons and worrying about your upgrades from there. The theorycraft in modelling weapons in general is great, and figuring out the next upgrades after the patch is great, but getting mired in specifics of inferior weapons when obtainable superior weapons are available just boggles the mind.

And the argument of rating obtainability doesn't fly in a community like this. That's along the same lines of saying you can't kill Naj'entus because raiding is hard so why bother considering Rising Tide.

Aximous · 03/20/08, 6:47 PM

Originally Posted by falonub

Yes, all the haste items we use, aside from bloodlust give a static amount of haste rating depending. Haste pots/Drums of Battle/Dragonspine Trophy increase haste rating, not haste percent per say.

I see the aforementioned change because of PvP, where they changed Power Infusion where it speeds casting by 20%, same with Icy Veins it increases cast speed by 20%.

Don't forget it says that only non-self buffs won't stack so bl or pi will stack with icy veins but not with each other.

Skiace · 03/20/08, 7:42 PM

Originally Posted by Unaz

And the argument of rating obtainability doesn't fly in a community like this. That's along the same lines of saying you can't kill Naj'entus because raiding is hard so why bother considering Rising Tide.

I don't think it's an invalid excuse when the context is considered. Those of us making these decisions now are obviously still just progressing through t6 content, and aren't in the same league as those who've been farming those zones for 6 months. (who may be bored of the content and find gearing and competing with a sub-optimal pvp spec an entertaining distraction.) There are plenty in this community that have the min-max attitude and have followed this discussion since bc beta, but for whatever reason (personal schedule choices, breaks from the game, etc) are months behind the pack in pve progression. Furthermore, we all know that enhance is in general a weak pvp spec, if not one of the weakest in the game.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that there are shaman out there with access to bt weapons that lack the resources to pick up season 3 weapons.

Xoya · 03/20/08, 8:14 PM

Originally Posted by Shalas

$\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}\right)$

$\huge Y - 1= \left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}$

Biggest thing I noticed is that your - disappeared. Specifically, the second equation should be:

$\huge Y - 1= - \left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}\right)$

I don't think that helps too much, but even little errors like that can cause huge problems when you're trying to get things to cancel out.

Starfox · 03/20/08, 9:30 PM

Originally Posted by Xoya

Biggest thing I noticed is that your - disappeared. Specifically, the second equation should be:

$\huge Y - 1= - \left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}\right)$

I don't think that helps too much, but even little errors like that can cause huge problems when you're trying to get things to cancel out.

That turns

$\frac{33.6+8Y}{1+.3Y}\ln (Y-1) = (3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)$
which is wrong as you stated. $Y \in [0,1] \Rightarrow Y-1 \in [-1,0]$ , that would give some problems with that logarithm

just into

$\frac{33.6+8Y}{1+.3Y}\ln (1-Y) = (3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)$

rava · 03/20/08, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Skiace

I don't think it's an invalid excuse when the context is considered. Those of us making these decisions now are obviously still just progressing through t6 content, and aren't in the same league as those who've been farming those zones for 6 months. (who may be bored of the content and find gearing and competing with a sub-optimal pvp spec an entertaining distraction.) There are plenty in this community that have the min-max attitude and have followed this discussion since bc beta, but for whatever reason (personal schedule choices, breaks from the game, etc) are months behind the pack in pve progression. Furthermore, we all know that enhance is in general a weak pvp spec, if not one of the weakest in the game.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that there are shaman out there with access to bt weapons that lack the resources to pick up season 3 weapons.

There are a lot of other options other than enhancement to pick up the weapons. I picked up the S1 elemental gear and ran with a 4dps team with 0 experience prior and hit 1850 the first week of S3. Granted, I had amazing teammates, but the spec is really easy to play(purge, purge, purge, heroism, lb, lb, lb, nsemcl, top group off, interrupt important things). I had a friend that hit it pretty early running paladin/shaman/warrior with minimal gear and I'd honestly think at this point in the season 1850 is very accessible if you have even a tiny bit of motivation.