Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 326

Krom[Fenris] · 11/15/07, 10:19 AM

The SR change has definitely made me have to re-think how I use it. Most fights I can continue to pop it with Blood Fury + trinkets to maximize the mana returns, but on some I've had to separate it from them to hold in reserve in case I draw aggro. I'm not complaining of course, it's awesome that I can reduce the damage I take by such a large amount. The MQ changes are also great, I can't get enough of seeing 2k+ shock crits

Shabadu · 11/15/07, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle

I have to say that I'm pretty surprised that your shocks are indeed clocking in at 10% of your damage. I suppose seeing shock contribution was a bit to be expected due to the Mental Quickness change and the mana cost reduction, but damn. What are you normally using for weapons? I doubt you're packing Soul Cleaver in raids.

Tide/Syphon last night. Usually I run Syphon/Syphon but I'm valuing hit more, especially for Shahraz where I'm wearing shadow resist gear.

Also check 2% Lightning bolt damage on Illidan. It's nice to dps during Demon phases.

Krom[Fenris] · 11/15/07, 10:24 AM

Also, one more thing, and I may have missed this being confirmed, but it seems that Stonebreaker Totem has a hidden cooldown of at least 10 seconds. I have yet to see it refresh the Elemental Strength buff on myself before it has worn off. I'm actually a little frustrated with the relic.

Malan · 11/15/07, 10:56 AM

A shaman in my guild mentioned that last night, apparently the druid relic has a 10 sec cooldown as well. I'm not sure that it matters though really - checking the derivation for that totem we decided that 30% uptime was good enough to beat the Astral Winds, and you only need 1 shock per 14 sec to average that uptime.

drats · 11/15/07, 11:01 AM

So my guild just started working on Well of Souls, and I was wondering if anyone has tried tanking a fixate enrage with the new SR + pain suppression. For that matter, does SR stack with Pain suppression? Seems like a shaman taking two-three fixates during the enrage would be possible with 95% damage reduction and two PWS.

I don't have my logs but I think Krom is correct about a hidden cooldown on the totem. I spec'd ele/enh to try and reach the 89% uptime but noticed that the buff was down more often than not. I'll try to run procwatch for tonight's raid to be sure.

I also noticed that totem names are still bugged. Instead of reading 'Drats Fire Nova Totem does X' it reads 'Fire Nova Totem's Fire Nova Totem does X'. My magma totem was doing ~180 damage per pulse for Hyjal trash, and I'd love to see that added to the dps meters. < snide remark about blade flurry >

Krom[Fenris] · 11/15/07, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

A shaman in my guild mentioned that last night, apparently the druid relic has a 10 sec cooldown as well. I'm not sure that it matters though really - checking the derivation for that totem we decided that 30% uptime was good enough to beat the Astral Winds, and you only need 1 shock per 14 sec to average that uptime.

I think it's a bit more difficult to hit that 30% uptime mark when every other shock is going to be a waste as far as chances to proc is concerned combined with not every shock causes a proc even when the cooldown isn't an issue. Would be good to try and do some testing to find out the exact cooldown on the totem.

Rob · 11/15/07, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Shabadu

But, I think the biggest difference wasn't in any of our changes, but rather in the expertise change for tanks. I went from having to hold back significantly on council using the Vashj trinket to going full bore with shocks/haste pots etc and only hitting 90% of tank threat. Teron especially used to be bad for threat, but between new spirit weapons and expertise, I only came close during lust/haste/drums.

Well, a much larger part of that would also be due to the Spirit Weapons buff. Our threat with BoS went from (1-.3)*(1-.15) = 59.5%, to (1-.3)*(1-.3) = 49%, which means that our TPS dropped by 18% of its original value. The expertise change, while nice, probably did not boost your tank TPS by 18%.

Originally Posted by drats

I also noticed that totem names are still bugged. Instead of reading 'Drats Fire Nova Totem does X' it reads 'Fire Nova Totem's Fire Nova Totem does X'. My magma totem was doing ~180 damage per pulse for Hyjal trash, and I'd love to see that added to the dps meters. < snide remark about blade flurry >

For now, that's "working as intended". The ability to add totem DPS to personal DPS won't come until we get unique unit IDs, which is supposed to come along with an enhanced combat log, for either 2.4 or 3.0.

Aloaya · 11/15/07, 12:21 PM

My Shaman's resto right now so I can't really test this myself:

Given the 10 second cooldown on the new totem, is it worth, if the buff is up (along with the cooldown), saving your next shock until the cooldown expires?

ie:

Shock procs totem, buff goes up
|
6 seconds
|
Shocks come off cooldown
|
4 seconds
|
Buff Expires
Shock (hoping to proc buff)

Just doing math in my head, we can estimate that doing this would delay half of all shocks (those that follow shocks that proc the buff). This means that the shock interval goes from 6sec to an average of 8. This is a 25% reduction in shocks over an extended period, meaning we lose that much damage from shocks. On the other hand, how much would that really improve buff uptime? It would remove an unavoidable 2 seconds buffless following every buff if shocks were used on cooldown, changing the optimal uptime from 10/2/10/2/10 to "always up" (a return of about 18ap), and I think the actual return is better than half that (though I may be wrong and it may be half -- or less).

So using a high estimate of lost damage and a low estimate of gain, is 25% of shock damage better than 9ap? Probably. But that 4 second window might be a good time to refresh totems if convenient, to avoid delaying SS or a shock capable of proccing the buff.

Illundai · 11/15/07, 12:39 PM

Anyone been able to do some live tests with Executioner? I was pondering and thinking about putting it on my OH, but it's damn expensive just to be trying it out :p.

Aegospotami · 11/15/07, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Yah you pretty much just proved your own ignorance there bud.

And let me clear up for you - I don't see myself as an "authority" on much of anything. Frequent readers of this thread know that I've eaten my words on several occasions and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that my math skills have taken a sharp nose dive since my last college course. I just happen to read this thread more than anyone else since I'm the one updating the info post.

According to your own Theorycraft, hit rating is a stat that is not to be prioritized, while Strength should always be chosen over attack power.

No matter how many of your buddies make posts trying to defend you, the fact is that you've got an inscription with AP and Hit rating over an inscription with Strength and Int. Because you claim +Hit doesn't bring anything to the table, and none of us are having mana issues with 2.3, we're left with the fact that you chose an AP inscription over one with Strength.

If you didn't need the +Hit, why did you go with the AP inscription? You can't seem to explain that, and your buddies who are defending you can't explain it either, so the fact of the matter is that to any objective observer, it's clear that despite your own Theorycraft, and despite the fact that you try to make people seem foolish for asking about hit rating, you chose +Hit at the expense of another stat.

Pretty hypocritical for a guy who tries to make other people look stupid for asking about hit rating, isn't it?

rava · 11/15/07, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Aegospotami

According to your own Theorycraft, hit rating is a stat that is not to be prioritized, while Strength should always be chosen over attack power.

No matter how many of your buddies make posts trying to defend you, the fact is that you've got an inscription with AP and Hit rating over an inscription with Strength and Int. Because you claim +Hit doesn't bring anything to the table, and none of us are having mana issues with 2.3, we're left with the fact that you chose an AP inscription over one with Strength.

If you didn't need the +Hit, why did you go with the AP inscription? You can't seem to explain that, and your buddies who are defending you can't explain it either, so the fact of the matter is that to any objective observer, it's clear that despite your own Theorycraft, and despite the fact that you try to make people seem foolish for asking about hit rating, you chose +Hit at the expense of another stat.

Pretty hypocritical for a guy who tries to make other people look stupid for asking about hit rating, isn't it?

Woah there, killer.

Your first statement is accurate, hit rating shouldn't be prioritized over stats for the most part, and strength is superior to ap due to kings. I think you're an ethug looking to start some shit over something you read too much into.

justinr · 11/15/07, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Shabadu

But, I think the biggest difference wasn't in any of our changes, but rather in the expertise change for tanks. I went from having to hold back significantly on council using the Vashj trinket to going full bore with shocks/haste pots etc and only hitting 90% of tank threat. Teron especially used to be bad for threat, but between new spirit weapons and expertise, I only came close during lust/haste/drums.

Our warrior was absolutely giddy last night, tanking multiple mobs with ease in hyjal, human warriors + expertise items are quite impressive. I think twisting tranquil air might be a thing of the past for me. The SR change just leaves me breathless, and I think my party is tired of heaing me talk about how much I love it. Any one have any numbers on how this would stack with elemental warding?

I don't want to lose NG, but 40% reduction to elemental effects with SR up does seem interesting at least.

Originally Posted by Illundai

Anyone been able to do some live tests with Executioner? I was pondering and thinking about putting it on my OH, but it's damn expensive just to be trying it out :p.

Our guild enchanter just got the pattern and I intend to go try this out asap. (I just need a few more shards :P) We have a rogue with it and he seems to enjoy it. So far the only thing I can say is that the graphic looks nice.

Malan · 11/15/07, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Aegospotami

Pretty hypocritical for a guy who tries to make other people look stupid for asking about hit rating, isn't it?

I'm not trying to do anything, you're doing pretty well on your own at managing that. Stop trolling this thread.

Rob · 11/15/07, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Aegospotami

According to your own Theorycraft, hit rating is a stat that is not to be prioritized, while Strength should always be chosen over attack power.

No matter how many of your buddies make posts trying to defend you, the fact is that you've got an inscription with AP and Hit rating over an inscription with Strength and Int. Because you claim +Hit doesn't bring anything to the table, and none of us are having mana issues with 2.3, we're left with the fact that you chose an AP inscription over one with Strength.

If you didn't need the +Hit, why did you go with the AP inscription? You can't seem to explain that, and your buddies who are defending you can't explain it either, so the fact of the matter is that to any objective observer, it's clear that despite your own Theorycraft, and despite the fact that you try to make people seem foolish for asking about hit rating, you chose +Hit at the expense of another stat.

Pretty hypocritical for a guy who tries to make other people look stupid for asking about hit rating, isn't it?

Saying "hit shouldn't be prioritized" is not the same as saying "hit is worthless". Any idiot can see that by the EP values in the original post, the community and Malan explicitly assign a positive, non-zero value to hit rating. Your criticism is wholly unwarranted. Now, shut up if you don't have anything worthwhile to talk about.

Bahruk · 11/15/07, 1:32 PM

Deleted.