My rogues that have are saying that the info they have shows 60% proc rate or around a 2 PPM. They didn't say where they got that info though, but if that's legit than the shard is definitely better than the DST.
Well that wasn't my original question, I was simply asking how to consider the "Shard of Contempt" in Yo's Simulator since he doesn't have a "choice" for it in the trinket section.
That's why we need to know the PPM, so we can calculate the average of attack power you'd have from the proc over a minute. For the expertise, you'll just have to add that to the paperdoll stats, like all other trinkets.
FS, SS, WF, GoA, ES. You'll have to make decisions on the fly what to delay from time to time, but that's what makes twisting fun and challenging.
a) In case all both SS & Twist come up, I reason: Is WF on CD? Yes? Twist. Is WF not on CD? SS. Then twist.
b) Twist + Shock. Twist. Always.
c) All 3? Do a) followed by a shock.
Or sometimes I just skip one cycle of a Twist and leave WF up for 5s.
Before 2.4, using DisqoDice, it was very, VERY easy for me to spot ~3-4 seconds earlier if they would come together. Then, I just twisted a bit earlier so that when the TCD(totem cd) ends, I'd have a spell ready with no lost time (or lost time down to a minimum). Don't know if any of you ever thought of doing that, but before that, as I had NO mana issues, it did work for me. Still yet to see how things go now.
Noob question that I'm sure has been asked many times before (but searching for syphon & EP doesn't work, Syphon alone comes up with a a loooooooot of hits, etc), how do you figure out the EP of the Syphon? Going strictly by the DPS and the AP, the two stats that EP assigns value to, its EP is relatively low, but that's without figuring in the proc which I'm assuming is what makes it so good. Would just like to know exactly what the EP value of the weapon is and how it was figured. Thanks!
The proc sucks pretty hard. Our shaman DWs syphons, and the proc makes ~0.7% of his total damage. Usually bit less, sometimes a bit more. Try estimating it maybe as 10 crit rating per syphon or so, DWing them makes it 20 crit, a bit less than 1%, should be in line with a 0.7% total damage increase.
What makes them so good is that they are 2.8s speed weapons.
I tried using the search yet it didn't work so here is my question.
say you have dual wield season 3 weapons and a syphon drops, would it be a good idea to go for syphon for a main hand and offhand with the season 3? or just stick with the season 3 weapon?
also i currently use a dragonstrike with executioner MH and a merciless gladiator pummler with potency ( i know its bad but i didn't want to get something nice on it ) OH. and my guild is 3 bosses into hyjal and starting BT tomorrow. and i have roughly 1700 rating in my arena teams climbing slowly. and have a monopoly on the dkp over the competition for Raid gear.
so my question is what should i shoot for getting The BT Syphons or Season 3 axes?
Originally thought to just say"check original post" , but I am actually too bored, so will quote anyways:
"3.2.1 Main Hand
Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available."
"Any combo of [Rising Tide] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or a pair of Syphons is the second-best option for those unable to attain an 1850 arena rating."
"3.2.2Off Hand
Current 2nd(I add this myself , because of the 2.4 offhand from sunwell best choice for an offhand is any of the Season 3 Arena weapons ([Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]). "
"Sunwell badge loot [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] and [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] are just under ~10 DPS of the S3 weapons."- 150 badges.
Those are your choices. I say just see what you could get easier. Do NOT pass syphon if you don't have the rest, but don't whore your dkp for it either. There are just 3 minor tricks to each of em really.
1st) U need tons of badges, tho they're not hard to get. Just a lot- for the brutality fists.
2nd) Syphon drops from 2nd BT boss who is relatively easy to get to and down. Problem is, drop rate is low.
3rd) vengeful weapons are uber. But you need the personal rating for them .
The choice is yours , I hope I helped.
And just check the original post, it is all summed up there.
Originally thought to just say"check original post" , but I am actually too bored, so will quote anyways:
"3.2.1 Main Hand
Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available."
"Any combo of [Rising Tide] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or a pair of Syphons is the second-best option for those unable to attain an 1850 arena rating."
"3.2.2Off Hand
Current 2nd(I add this myself , because of the 2.4 offhand from sunwell best choice for an offhand is any of the Season 3 Arena weapons ([Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]). "
"Sunwell badge loot [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] and [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] are just under ~10 DPS of the S3 weapons."- 150 badges.
Those are your choices. I say just see what you could get easier. Do NOT pass syphon if you don't have the rest, but don't whore your dkp for it either. There are just 3 minor tricks to each of em really.
1st) U need tons of badges, tho they're not hard to get. Just a lot- for the brutality fists.
2nd) Syphon drops from 2nd BT boss who is relatively easy to get to and down. Problem is, drop rate is low.
3rd) vengeful weapons are uber. But you need the personal rating for them .
The choice is yours , I hope I helped.
And just check the original post, it is all summed up there.
thats not quite what i meant.... but thank you for helping sort of.
I'd like to make a point of clarity for the main post, regarding the shock rotation for enhancement. Flame shock spam is NOT ideal.
Flame shock does not have a flat 67% coeffecient. Older testing on the WoW shaman forum (TBC Shaman FAQ) states the coeffecient is broken down to 15% on the instant portion of the shock, and 51% on the dot portion. At home testing states ~21% on the instant portion and ~40% on the dot portion. With +657 dmg, my flame shock did 518 (377 + .21(657)) on the instant and 170.5 damage per tick for a total of 682 (420 + .4(657)) for the dot portion.
It doesn't add up to 67%, first, but those are the numbers. But the fact that a split coeffecient is present at least really shoots down the viability of flame shock spam as proposed. Using my coeffecients, the 6 second dps of a flame shock is:
202.9 dps is less than what earth shock offers over 6 seconds, especially since one must wait a fraction of a second for the 2nd flame shock tick after the next shock is ready. Using slant's numbers, the result dps is identical, oddly enough.
The conclusion, therefore, is that for 6 seconds flame shock isn't superior. Please edit
There are some claims that UR generates aggro again. (no raid till sunday, so haven't checked my own aggro yet). hopefully unintended if it's the case.
I have noticed this in Zul' Aman today, we had a patroll add and the warrior tank went to them and had agro. I wasnt even near them yet i got all of them come for me from range (and ofcourse kill me). Somehow I caused more threat then rage and HoTs.
"I have noticed this in Zul' Aman today, we had a patroll add and the warrior tank went to them and had agro. I wasnt even near them yet i got all of them come for me from range (and ofcourse kill me). Somehow I caused more threat then rage and HoTs."
Same thing in heroic magister to me. I overagroed when there was offtanked mobs. Healer was doing over 100tps to every mob so this is pretty big bug. Pretty insane repair bill with warrior tank. Only with protadin if this keep poking me in live.
The conclusion, therefore, is that for 6 seconds flame shock isn't superior. Please edit
If you want to argue that the coefficients for Flame Shock are wrong on wowwiki etc, than we can explore that. If you are arguing that my math is wrong with the assumption that the coefficients are right, you're incorrect. I did it both ways (split the DD and the DoT and added the dmg together vs doing them in one calc) just to be sure and they both came out the same.
I will admit that I didn't check into the number of DoTs and when they'd be ticking vs when the next shock would be ready, but lets be realistic here, nobody has a 0 ping to be hitting shocks back to back anyways.
There's also the point that not using SS charges (or using them as little as possible) will give more benefit to other people, most notably the Elemental Shaman (like me). Rough estimate is a 6.7% dps boost if I get both charges, although I haven't taken into account overload eating the second charge itself (which may reduce it to 6.3%).
I tried using the search yet it didn't work so here is my question.
syphon for a main hand and offhand with the season 3?
or just stick with the season 3 weapon?
also i currently use a dragonstrike with executioner MH and a merciless gladiator pummler with potency
so my question is what should i shoot for getting The BT Syphons or Season 3 axes?
Xam, this is the kind of post that will get you banned form the forums. This thread is not for "what gear should I get?" That is exactly what you asked.
The first post in this thread clearly spells out that season 3 outperforms any weapons from Hyjal or BT.
The author hated having to put that information in there, because the entire point of this thread is teach people how to figure that information out for themselves. There is a simulator for determing what weapon suits you best, please use it.
About the syphon proc, I feel your pain. A long time ago, I answered that a single syphon was 3 to 5 dps for me according to WWS reports. That post is so ancient it doesn't show up in the first few pages of a search. Because my values come from straight data, not a mathematical formula for determing the value of the proc, it's not contained in the simulator.
From wowwiki again.
" * Flame Shock is benefited from the Mage talent Improved Scorch
* Flame shock is benefited from the Warlock curse Curse of the Elements "
Therefore, it would do more damage if the target has those debuffs , plus it will not anger your elemental shaman. Another thing(again from wowwiki):
"This is considered the most mana efficient shock"
Usually, I'd say that mana doesn't matter, but since we have only 15 seconds of eternal mana, we should start taking notes for this as well in my oppinion. There are many shamans that complain of getting oom even.Oh, and where is it said that the coefficient of flame shock is wrong in the post? Sorry, couldn't see it.
Well I don't exactly know how accurate DrDamage is but for my warlock it seemed very very precise. And it's showing me that flameshock does around 1250 damage and earthshock only does around 1k, so only if I use my own SS charges earthshock is comparable or better, but in a raid even without an elemental shaman there are only few situations where I can use my own charges so better stick with FS/ES rotation.
There are SOME suggestions of the proc already. Quote from wowhead.com:
10%-ish proc rate, 20-second duration, 45-second hidden cooldown. So that's pretty much nearly a 50% uptime rate for 230 AP. So yeah the proc is amazing, and that's why this isn't a gimmicky "let's cap Expertise and stand in the frontal arc of anything that doesn't cleave!" item. It's just a winner and if you see one drop, stab the rest of your group to equip it.
I know it ain't exact numbers, but it's a start. Or so I hope.
Oh, and where is it said that the coefficient of flame shock is wrong in the post? Sorry, couldn't see it.
In the OP it doesn't, I use 67%. Philomon disagreed, it was just a few posts up but here's the portion he mentions it -
Originally Posted by philomon
Flame shock does not have a flat 67% coeffecient. Older testing on the WoW shaman forum (TBC Shaman FAQ) states the coeffecient is broken down to 15% on the instant portion of the shock, and 51% on the dot portion. At home testing states ~21% on the instant portion and ~40% on the dot portion. With +657 dmg, my flame shock did 518 (377 + .21(657)) on the instant and 170.5 damage per tick for a total of 682 (420 + .4(657)) for the dot portion.
It doesn't add up to 67%, first, but those are the numbers. But the fact that a split coeffecient is present at least really shoots down the viability of flame shock spam as proposed. Using my coeffecients, the 6 second dps of a flame shock is:
)
And yes, its not a "Flat coeffecient", it is indeed split between the DoT and the DD. But he's incorrect to say that I have to split that and can't add it up to 67%.
a% * X + b% * Y= (a%+b%) * (X + Y). As I said, I did it both ways just to verify when I was writing that section and the results were identical. The only point I'm willing to concede is that the coefficients themselves (which I grabbed from wowwiki) might be incorrect.
Maybe you've understood me wrong- my question was different.. The link philomon gave to provide evidence to his theory : I didn't see where it says that the coefficient is not 67%- saw an interesting post, but nothing about flame shock. Philomon, can you quote from the link that you provided, please? Because this is what you say:
"Older testing on the WoW shaman forum (TBC Shaman FAQ) states the coefficient is broken down to 15% on the instant portion of the shock, and 51% on the dot portion."
Can we all see this statement? Or can you tell me where it is in the original post?
There are SOME suggestions of the proc already. Quote from wowhead.com:
10%-ish proc rate, 20-second duration, 45-second hidden cooldown. So that's pretty much nearly a 50% uptime rate for 230 AP. So yeah the proc is amazing, and that's why this isn't a gimmicky "let's cap Expertise and stand in the frontal arc of anything that doesn't cleave!" item. It's just a winner and if you see one drop, stab the rest of your group to equip it.
I know it ain't exact numbers, but it's a start. Or so I hope.
230ap * 20s duration / (45s cd + avarage time to get buff + 20s duration)
With 10% change avarage time to get buff is. Using 1hit per second model. x is then hit or second.
0.9 ^ x = 0.5
x = 6.57.
Let say 7 hit or second.
230ap * 20s / (72s) = 64ap = 64ep or 28% uptime.
64ep + 44expertice ep value.
Its huge its best but no that good that someones have hyped it.
Last and least. I got it and I like it.
Ok. guys help out. I am going insane here. I have been pve raiding shaman. Then resto pvp for god damn long time. Now going back to enh for pvp. Long story short I had a long break with melee.
I am noticing something that as i recall melee mechanic should not ever happen.
I have maxxed axe skill of course.
Wielding 2 axes.
Having around 12% in pvp gear.
And i am getting glancing blows vs level 70 mobs.
Werent glancing limited to only higher level mobs? Did anything change? Am i losing my mind?
The combat log clearly states: (glancing)
Can we all see this statement? Or can you tell me where it is in the original post?
It goes on for several posts. My FAQ contains basically the same information as this thread, presented differently for a somewhat less sophisticated audience. Many of the spell coefficients haven't been tested since 2.1; if they've changed that would be good to know.
"However, Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner will not outperform the dps benefit of double Mongoose unless the Enhancement Shaman is geared with nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration."
I am getting SSC/TK/T5 geared, and I am saving badges for the fists (I admit, I suck at PVP). Obviously I will be re-enchanting my weapons. But I couldn't find any mention of the value of Armor Pen that would be necessary, and I am a bit confused because later the main page says:
"At high T5 content and beyond, Executioner will become more valuable."
So, how do I determine the crossover point for a double mongoose vs. an executioner/mongoose? And, assuming the latter, which one would be the preferred on the MH?
03/29/08, 4:47 AM
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