[top] 7% downtime.

Same thing, assuming a 30% crit rate

Lujaar · 07/24/07, 2:13 PM

Edit: This actually did get discussed a fair bit and I missed most of the responses. Verdict seems to be that the axe isn't too important. Nevermind.

I know this got touched on earlier, but it never really got discussed. For those of you who have done Kael, would you recommend using the 2h axe, or the dagger? Or possibly some combination of both - use the axe until it procs, then switch to the dagger?

I don't have any firsthand experience with the fight aside from a couple testing-the-waters pulls last night, but if I need to be able to equip the axe, I need to respec and put a point in that stupid talent beforehand.

Malan · 07/24/07, 2:16 PM

Stigmata has stated several times in this thread that he only uses the 2H for the run speed buff and continues to DPS using his normal weapons.

I've updated the front page with some notes on the totem twisting stuff.

The Omen · 07/24/07, 3:28 PM

thanks for this post I'm glad it has seen so much attention /cheer for you Malan
hopefully those shaman using fast off-hands will read this

i put this link in a thread on my forums and gave you credit /bow

Luciellena · 07/24/07, 5:24 PM

Thanks for the info everyone, this has been a very helpful thread.

oogg · 07/24/07, 5:32 PM

Has anyone attempted to model the minimum stats needed to keep UR up 100% of the time? It seems as if some of the data and ideas presented may increase personal DPS, but raid DPS is not considered. For example, stacking +crit over +hit, as some have started to do, may increase personal DPS, but may not keep UR up as much.

Has anyone found a "sweet spot?" I'm looking for data, not theory. I'd like to plan my loot path, and I don't necessarily agree with lootzor since it leans heavily towards warrior and rogue itemization which will give me pure DPS, but does nothing to consider a loss of 5% UR uptime.

Is there any tool like Tornhoof's WoW Equipment Optimizer that does this in addition to optimizing personal itemization?

Thanks in advance.

Disquette · 07/24/07, 5:48 PM

oogg - take your crit rate, hit rate, and your number of expected attacks within a 10 second period, and it should give you an idea of what this number is. For example, let's say i have 2 2.6 weapons.

I'll conservatively say I have 25% crit chance, and will only windfury once in a 10 second period. I'll also conservatively say that in that 10 seconds, each weapon only auto attacks 4 times.

So, in a 10 second period, i have:
8 auto attacks
4 yellow attacks

Expect 6 of the auto attacks to connect (misses/dodges)
Expect 3 of the yellow attacks to connect (dodges)

I have been extremely conservative.

We thus have 9 hits landing in the span that UR could be refreshed. What are the chances that UR will fade then?

that's
3/4^9

[top] 7% downtime.

Same thing, assuming a 30% crit rate

4% downtime.

You can take the above numbers (which are pretty conservative), modify them to your own situation, and make your own decision based on that.

Khlysti · 07/24/07, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by oogg

Has anyone attempted to model the minimum stats needed to keep UR up 100% of the time? It seems as if some of the data and ideas presented may increase personal DPS, but raid DPS is not considered. For example, stacking +crit over +hit, as some have started to do, may increase personal DPS, but may not keep UR up as much.

Has anyone found a "sweet spot?" I'm looking for data, not theory. I'd like to plan my loot path, and I don't necessarily agree with lootzor since it leans heavily towards warrior and rogue itemization which will give me pure DPS, but does nothing to consider a loss of 5% UR uptime.

Is there any tool like Tornhoof's WoW Equipment Optimizer that does this in addition to optimizing personal itemization?

Thanks in advance.

'Unleashed Rage Rank 5

Causes your critical hits with melee attacks to increase all party members' melee attack power by 10% if within 20 yards of the Shaman. Lasts 10 sec.'

Stacking +crit is the ONLY way to increase uptime, and it is a fairly basic proof to show you need 100% crit to produce 100% uptime. You will tend towards 100% at a much lower crit level however.

Lootzor gives you the loot you ask for, if you want mail with int/mp5 then give those stats a value, if it tells you rogue loot is the best option when you don't want rogue loot then you put in the wrong stat values.

As to stat levels, my current in game tests are still at early stages (posted some early haste stuff a page or so back). But at my gear level atleast it seems (with kings):

haste > strength > crit = 2AP > agi > hit.

Haste gear is (basically) only available in teir 6 zones, and is probably of lower value at lower gear levels anyway. Crit is pretty much only worse than strength on the grounds of kings, so an 'optimal' set will include quite a bit of crit, which is what keeps UR up. I therefore fail to see how you could end up trying to increase your own dps and decrease crit rate by any significant amount.

Unaz · 07/24/07, 6:12 PM

Originally Posted by Khlysti

Lootzor gives you the loot you ask for, if you want mail with int/mp5 then give those stats a value, if it tells you rogue loot is the best option when you don't want rogue loot then you put in the wrong stat values.

That reminds me. I previously had stam at a .5 value, and mp5 and int on there at like .2 just to keep them around. But recently changed my link to this, which lowered the value of some shaman gear and raised up a few pieces of rogue gear a bit.

I did notice when looking closer that some of their items have the old stats, and they are even missing some pieces of T4 and 5 gear in my searches, which threw off my little list'o'bosses-I-need a bit.

I also probably value strength very slightly less then others, as I rarely have the luxury of kings on raids. Typically I'll only have one blessing available, and I go with Might in that case. But it's still very slightly higher then the equivilent AP in my search just in case.

Malan · 07/24/07, 7:11 PM

I'm using this valuation - lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
I think I have this right based on the values I've been going off of from Tornhoof's example. I assign no value to stam/int.

Rob · 07/24/07, 9:54 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

I'm using this valuation - lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
I think I have this right based on the values I've been going off of from Tornhoof's example. I assign no value to stam/int.

(From the link)
Melee Crit 1
Melee Hit 0.69
Atk. Power 1

Those are *very* different numbers from Disquette and Pater's sims. I don't trust them. I'd expect Hit ~1 - 1.5 and Crit ~1.5 - 2

Malan · 07/24/07, 10:35 PM

Hmm. I made AP worth 1, Str worth 2.2 (with kings) and then for hit I did 1AP/1.41 hit.
If I'm wrong on that, I suck at ratios.

In other news though, we just finished FLK for tonight -

The melee are very well geared, no slouches in that raid. I'm not sure why this fight is so well tuned toward enhance shaman, I'm always top 3 on this one.

Rob · 07/24/07, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Hmm. I made AP worth 1, Str worth 2.2 (with kings) and then for hit I did 1AP/1.41 hit.

It's 1 hit = 1.41 AP, not 1.41 hit = 1 AP, so hit should have 1.41 in the little box (and crit should have 1.5 or 2 depending on if you're using Disquette's or Pater's values)

Yavon · 07/25/07, 1:11 AM

Hey guys.. quick question.
Which potions do you use in your DPS rotation. I usually use Haste Pot.. every time they are up. And even with heroism. But I am thinking of trying Insane Str Potion..when I pop Heroism.. and haste for everything else. Thoughts?

Also, I know the first page touches on it. However, could someone explain to me why Flask for 120 AP beats Elixir of Agi.. for 2.3% (total).

Thanks in advance.

Sebudai · 07/25/07, 2:50 AM

Haste Potion's are much better than Insane Strength Potion's. Just use the stat ratios that have been posted in this thread. 1 Strength = 0.9 Haste Rating, so Insane Strength Potion's would need to give 360 Strength to equal the benefit of a Haste Potion. That's 3 times the amount they actually give(plus they reduce your defense!)

Haste Potion's are kind of overpowered in comparison to the other options, actually. It's like a personal mini-Bloodlust with a shorter cooldown.

You can use the same ratio's to figure out which is better between the agility elixir and the flask. The flask comes out slightly ahead as far as dps is concerned. The fact that it also lasts through death is a big deal too, though.

drats · 07/25/07, 4:00 AM

Malan: What mod is that that you're using to graph out damage and threat vs time like that? It looks kindof like SWstats but I've never seen that functionality in it. On fights where you're threat capped do you ever get your tanks to post their graphs for comparison?

Sebudai: Shouldn't insane strength potions have an advantage due to the WF and SS procs that happen while you're using them? You can theoretically get 2 SS and 4 WF procs with extra AP during the potion duration. Or is the extra damage from those procs plus your normal swings significantly less than the damage from extra attacks over 15 seconds?

edit: late-night posting causes stupid mistakes

Retta · 07/25/07, 4:15 AM

Drats I believe that mod is recount, theres a post about it in the UI section of the forum.

Sebudai · 07/25/07, 4:18 AM

Originally Posted by drats

Sebudai: Shouldn't insane strength potions have an advantage due to the WF and SS procs that happen while you're using them? You can theoretically get 2 SS and 4 WF procs with extra AP during the potion duration. Or is the extra damage from those procs plus your normal swings significantly less than the damage from extra attacks over 15 seconds?

Unless my understanding is way off, it doesn't matter. Those factors are all taken into consideration when we came up with the stat weightings. They're not something we have to re-calculate here.

Yavon · 07/25/07, 9:42 AM

Figure I use the post since it has the attention of so many valued members of shaman community.

Question: How many of you shaman aim for MAX hit cap, and if you do not.. what is your goal... Do you aim for highest AP possible, or crit for a certain amount. I keep flip flopping on what I want to aim for considering my current gear and what is available.

We are in SSC cleared to Vash and working on Al'ar next.. take a look at my armory let me know what you think i should aim for.

Unaz · 07/25/07, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Yavon

Figure I use the post since it has the attention of so many valued members of shaman community.

Question: How many of you shaman aim for MAX hit cap, and if you do not.. what is your goal... Do you aim for highest AP possible, or crit for a certain amount. I keep flip flopping on what I want to aim for considering my current gear and what is available.

We are in SSC cleared to Vash and working on Al'ar next.. take a look at my armory let me know what you think i should aim for.

As said in the thread, you aim for whichever item gives you the highest overall value according to the ratio of stats. Hit doesn't come out to be overly important by itself beyond the first 6% (That you get from talents). Your other melee stats scale your damage at about the same rate, whether you're at an 80% white hit or 100% white hit.

More is certainly better, but not at the detriment of other stats. I personally don't like to dip below 15% total +hit though. Which is around a 90% white hit rate(although there's some info as to 24% not being the actual cap any more).

Aett · 07/25/07, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Yavon

Figure I use the post since it has the attention of so many valued members of shaman community.

Question: How many of you shaman aim for MAX hit cap, and if you do not.. what is your goal... Do you aim for highest AP possible, or crit for a certain amount. I keep flip flopping on what I want to aim for considering my current gear and what is available.

We are in SSC cleared to Vash and working on Al'ar next.. take a look at my armory let me know what you think i should aim for.

I run around 150 or so. For a short while I ran with 240+, but after reading a bunch of stuff here I dropped a ton and was really satisfied with the results. Makes itemization a lot easier too when you can actually pick up pure-stat pieces that warriors generally won't touch. Just pray your feral druids don't get pissed off.. >_>

EDIT: I don't know how the desolation chest got equipped in my armory profile, I must have been really sleepy or something. I normally run with the revered LC chest, which thank god I'm upgrading really soon.

Yavon · 07/25/07, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Unaz

As said in the thread, you aim for whichever item gives you the highest overall value according to the ratio of stats. Hit doesn't come out to be overly important by itself beyond the first 6% (That you get from talents). Your other melee stats scale your damage at about the same rate, whether you're at an 80% white hit or 100% white hit.

More is certainly better, but not at the detriment of other stats. I personally don't like to dip below 15% total +hit though. Which is around a 90% white hit rate(although there's some info as to 24% not being the actual cap any more).

So then how would u use that ratio with an item with multiple stats on it.. Like Ring of the Shadow Deeps verse another ring.. sorry if I am being short bus.. just want a firm understanding.

Stigmata · 07/25/07, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Yavon

So then how would u use that ratio with an item with multiple stats on it.. Like Ring of the Shadow Deeps verse another ring.. sorry if I am being short bus.. just want a firm understanding.

I dont use any of the ratios posted on here, I just look at the available upgrades and wait for them to drop.

I'm currently at 1506AP, 160 Hit rating and 30.27% crit and 10% passive haste, this equates to about 2700-3100 AP in a raid environment and 40ish % crit. (LotP and kings, might etc)

I think i'll have about 1700 AP unbuffed when I have all the items Im hoping to get, while maintaining the other stats in a similar position.

Sebudai · 07/25/07, 4:06 PM

I use the ratios posted in this thread to determine if a particular item happens to be an upgrade. That's it. When an upgrade drops, I send on it. My guild happens to get a lot of the non-set mail, so that's what I have(rather than a lot of T6.)

My current stats are the result of just sending on upgrades as they drop. We don't hold out for the best possible options in Juggernaut.

So then how would u use that ratio with an item with multiple stats on it.. Like Ring of the Shadow Deeps verse another ring.. sorry if I am being short bus.. just want a firm understanding.

Easy. I'll give you an example by totaling up the difference between two belts.

The ratios are 1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP = 0.9 Haste. This means, for example, 1 crit rating is worth 1 'point' while 1 hit rating is worth 0.7 'points'. We just use this ratio to assign each stat on an item a value and then add those values up to get a total that we can compare against other items. A higher total is better.

Valestalker Girdle
556 Armor
+27 Agility (26.25)
+25 Stamina
+18 Intellect
Equip: Improves haste rating by 36 (32.4)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76 (38)

Total: 96.65

Girdle of Tidal Call
506 Armor
+35 Strength (38.5)
+30 Stamina
+20 Intellect
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 33 (33)

Total: 71.5

So, Valestalker Girdle is pretty clearly better than Girdle of Tidal Call.

Malan · 07/25/07, 5:02 PM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

The ratios are 1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP = 0.9 Haste. This means, for example, 1 crit rating is worth 1 'point' while 1 hit rating is worth 0.7 'points'. We just use this ratio to assign each stat on an item a value and then add those values up to get a total that we can compare against other items. A higher total is better.

That's exactly how I was calculating my values in my post above, which Rob said was incorrect. So ... was I correct after all? ie, 1 AP / 1.43 HR = 0.6999 ~ 7 AEP.

Kalince · 07/25/07, 5:21 PM

Is it worth discussing at what point you should break 2-piece t4 over more personal damage items. I have been thinking about going back to wearing it full time, especially on fights where I am likely to hit threat cap if I go all out.

[top] 7% downtime. Same thing, assuming a 30% crit rate

[top] 7% downtime.

Same thing, assuming a 30% crit rate