The chances of proccing windfury is still a flat 36%
Do you mean stormstrike when you said 36%? Since it is attacking with both weapons. On white hits, each hit should be 20%, unless i'm missing something.
The idea is that an item with a 2.6 makes a Windfury proc more than with a fast weapon, such as a Dagger... But then we get into the talk about Haste Rating... Haste Rating changes the Weapon Speed, giving you a faster weapon... Though wouldn't that make your Windfury's Proc Rate considerably less?
It may not significantly increase your windfury proc rate, since it is capped, but hitting more could never significantly reduce your windfury proc rate. It was theorized that this could be possible in very special circumstances but modelling has demonstrated that haste always increases dps.
It may not significantly increase your windfury proc rate, since it is capped, but hitting more could never significantly reduce your windfury proc rate. It was theorized that this could be possible in very special circumstances but modelling has demonstrated that haste always increases dps.
yeah, I went over the first page again. Seems like just a bit of minor misunderstanding and communication on my part.
Ok, this question isn't specific to Enhancement Shamans alone, but this is probably the best place to ask it.
If you've got a 10-man crew with a Ret Paladin and a Fury Warrior, with a bear tanking, is there any _possible_ class configuration that would justify putting the shaman in the other group for WoA?
-In our country, any CBC reporter can dream of becoming head of state.
Someone talked about Unleashed Rage generating threat again some pages ago. So I tested it with another guildmember: He bodypulled a mob and I attacked the next one to proc Unleashed Rage. I didn't pull aggro off him with proccing several times (and I made sure he got the buff). This was in Nagrand, so unless there's some weird special case in instances or with specific mobs Unleashed Rage still doesn't generate threat.
Ok, this question isn't specific to Enhancement Shamans alone, but this is probably the best place to ask it.
If you've got a 10-man crew with a Ret Paladin and a Fury Warrior, with a bear tanking, is there any _possible_ class configuration that would justify putting the shaman in the other group for WoA?
Get out...
(think about warrior and paladin mechanics and the answer should be clear though in that WF or nothing)
For the love of god please read the Original Post!
It may not significantly increase your windfury proc rate, since it is capped, but hitting more could never significantly reduce your windfury proc rate. It was theorized that this could be possible in very special circumstances but modelling has demonstrated that haste always increases dps.
I'd amend that to say:
Originally Posted by mek
It was theorized and shown in very controlled models that lowering dps via haste rating is easily achievable with the right combinations of talents, gear, and procs, but the same modelling has also demonstrated that haste always increases dps when using realistic in-game talents, gear, and procs.
The idea is that an item with a 2.6 makes a Windfury proc more than with a fast weapon, such as a Dagger... But then we get into the talk about Haste Rating... Haste Rating changes the Weapon Speed, giving you a faster weapon... Though wouldn't that make your Windfury's Proc Rate considerably less?
You got it wrong. It's not that a 2.6s weapon makes Windfury proc MORE than a fast weapon, it's that a 2.6s weapon hits HARDER than a fast weapon. A fast weapon actually will proc windfury more often than a slow one; however, the cooldown means you're never going to get more than one proc every three seconds. This means you never get enough additional WF procs due to speed to make up for the lower damage of a fast weapon.
Besides; even without the WF cooldown, you'd get more benefit from a slower weapon due to Stormstrike.
Haste speeds a weapon up while keeping its damage constant. Thus, in addition to increasing your autoattack dps, you get the benefit of slightly increased Windfury procs without the penalty of doing less damage. Haste is a good thing; and the more hit/crit/armor pen/AP you have, the better it gets.
this has prob been asked, just too much info to read threw. I am currently using syphon/tide. My question is i am considering using the 2 badge fist weapons. The haste is very tempting. My only concern is the weapon speed. 2.50 is abit fast compaired to what we have been taught and from what we have been using.
If you've got a 10-man crew with a Ret Paladin and a Fury Warrior, with a bear tanking, is there any _possible_ class configuration that would justify putting the shaman in the other group for WoA?
Sure. Three enhancement shamans. Put the one that sucks in group 2. If none of them suck, the one in group 2 should drop GoA for himself.
The only time I ever drop WoA is in 5-mans consisting of a paladin tank and three casters, and even then it's mostly out of courtesy.
this has prob been asked, just too much info to read threw.
Yes, it has been asked. Repeatedly. And none of us are going to give you an answer because this is asked on every single page and the answer is always the same.
this has prob been asked, just too much info to read threw. I am currently using syphon/tide. My question is i am considering using the 2 badge fist weapons. The haste is very tempting. My only concern is the weapon speed. 2.50 is abit fast compaired to what we have been taught and from what we have been using.
There's no need to read "through" every page to find the answer. The search utility is very friendly and you'll find many responses. The easiest place to find your answer is on page 1.
Someone talked about Unleashed Rage generating threat again some pages ago. So I tested it with another guildmember: He bodypulled a mob and I attacked the next one to proc Unleashed Rage. I didn't pull aggro off him with proccing several times (and I made sure he got the buff). This was in Nagrand, so unless there's some weird special case in instances or with specific mobs Unleashed Rage still doesn't generate threat.
Something is generating AoE threat. Maybe it's Flurry. I don't know what it is, but something is. I sacrificed a 40g repair bill last night in heroic MrT showing this on several pulls in a row to prove the point to the others in the group. I was running with:
Prot Paladin
Holy Paladin
Fire Mage
Survival Hunter
Prot paladin would pull a big group (5-6 mobs including the warlock's imp pet) using Avenger's Shield. I stand in one place, wait for imp to come by, hit Stormstrike (imp was always dead long before the GCD was up to Shock it, so it wasn't a [Stonebreaker's Totem] proc), and every mob that wasn't hit by Avenger's Shield would turn and start killing me. I did this on 5 or 6 separate pulls with the exact same effect every time. If I just Earth Shocked the imp from range and didn't melee (i.e., didn't proc UR or Flurry), everything else would completely ignore me and keep running at the tank. Similarly, if the tank didn't pull perfectly out of LoS and a caster could keep shooting him without stepping on the consecrate, I would occasionally end up with it on me after hitting the primary DPS target.
However, I realize this contradicts your testing in Nagrand. I honestly don't know what the difference is, which is why I provided the group makeup on the chance I'm missing some key element. The only thing I can figure out is maybe my [Hourglass of the Unraveller] procced every single time I tried, but that seems unlikely--I admit I didn't look for it in my combat log, though.
[e] It's also possible that mobs will occasionally stop following whoever they're after if someone new pops onto their threat table and both players have zero actual threat on the mob, and the original player is out of LoS while the new one is immediately available to be hit. I honestly don't know.
At any rate, I'd say that you aren't doing a very controlled test of this. If the paladin is pulling with shield and then running out of LoS, and you are the closest valid target then of course they're going to shift to you.
Unleashed Rage is probably applying some very small amount of threat as a buff gain, same as most abilities do, but what you're describing is not UR "yanking" in an AoE manner. Note that bren who posted above you tested in a much more controlled environment and was unable to yank off someone who body pulled a mob.
From what I've read and experienced, the adds on Delrissa don't follow a threat table in the usual manner, so that's probably not the best encounter to test AoE threat from procs.
Malan is correct. As I stated above, I tested this on many different trash pulls, not on that boss.
It was also not a water shield proc, at least not on the imp-killing scenarios - those imps don't have a melee attack, and nothing else was doing anything to cause a proc.
This was mainly annoying because it was acting differently than I've experienced in the past. MrT is hardly the only instance that has pulls with a low-hp, low-damage add that can be insta-killed on pull - Shadow Labyrinth is a prime example, which I've run on heroic many times pre-patch with the same tank and never had a similar experience. The difference there is LoS--it's not as handy to pull those groups around a corner, so they didn't switch targets.
Perhaps the whole thing can just be explained by line of sight, and the ones that didn't appear to have a problem hitting the tank ended up on me because of a water shield proc from a glaive throw, or a totem proc, or an hourglass proc, or any number of other things. If I can get some people to help, I'll try to do some more controlled tests, but all I can really offer in the meantime is that it feels like it's generating some small amount of threat. I'll see if I can wrangle someone into helping out.
My guild is currently working on Achimonde in Hyjal and I have a question on whether or not to lose my 4 set T5 bonus for the new badge loot that is coming out. Right now the only piece of T5 I am missing is the chest off Kael so obviously that will be a buy asap. Just want to know if the lovely flurry bonus is worth not getting more pieces from badges prior to me getting more gear via the T6 content we are on now.
I've been searching this thread all morning, but not been able to come across anyone addressing this issue. If it's a duplicate question, I apologize, so feel free to delete it.
I've recently been running Yo's simulator with the added expertise values I expect to get from the [Shard of Contempt], and I noticed an odd effect. With 5 expertise, the EP is around 2.88, which seems to be consistent with what has been posted in other locations. However, when I increase my expertise to 16, the EP drops to 1.8 or so. I know that stat changes will alter the EP somewhat, but I wouldn't expect this amount of shift, as to my knowledge, there aren't really any diminishing returns on expertise.
My guess is it has something to do with the calculation of expertise EP by checking the difference of +10 exp. If you are within 10 exp of the cap, this will naturally result in a much smaller gain than 10x the value of 1 exp. Or am I just off base, and this is expected behavior of increasing expertise?
Also, I noticed that in the OP it says bosses are believed to have a 5.6% dodge (23 exp cap), but then a few weeks ago, there was some discussion about determining boss dodge rates. However, that discussion seems to have died with no result posted. Is 5.6% still the assumed dodge chance, or is that still in question?
My guild is currently working on Achimonde in Hyjal and I have a question on whether or not to lose my 4 set T5 bonus for the new badge loot that is coming out. Right now the only piece of T5 I am missing is the chest off Kael so obviously that will be a buy asap. Just want to know if the lovely flurry bonus is worth not getting more pieces from badges prior to me getting more gear via the T6 content we are on now.
The best thing you can do is run comparisons with Yo's simulator. Run it once with the stats from your 4-piece T5 gear and run it a second time with the stats from the badge pieces you're interested in.
I've been searching this thread all morning, but not been able to come across anyone addressing this issue. If it's a duplicate question, I apologize, so feel free to delete it.
I've recently been running Yo's simulator with the added expertise values I expect to get from the [Shard of Contempt], and I noticed an odd effect. With 5 expertise, the EP is around 2.88, which seems to be consistent with what has been posted in other locations. However, when I increase my expertise to 16, the EP drops to 1.8 or so. I know that stat changes will alter the EP somewhat, but I wouldn't expect this amount of shift, as to my knowledge, there aren't really any diminishing returns on expertise.
My guess is it has something to do with the calculation of expertise EP by checking the difference of +10 exp. If you are within 10 exp of the cap, this will naturally result in a much smaller gain than 10x the value of 1 exp. Or am I just off base, and this is expected behavior of increasing expertise?
Also, I noticed that in the OP it says bosses are believed to have a 5.6% dodge (23 exp cap), but then a few weeks ago, there was some discussion about determining boss dodge rates. However, that discussion seems to have died with no result posted. Is 5.6% still the assumed dodge chance, or is that still in question?
There's a conversation regarding this on the previous page.
Malan is correct. As I stated above, I tested this on many different trash pulls, not on that boss.
It was also not a water shield proc, at least not on the imp-killing scenarios - those imps don't have a melee attack, and nothing else was doing anything to cause a proc.
This was mainly annoying because it was acting differently than I've experienced in the past. MrT is hardly the only instance that has pulls with a low-hp, low-damage add that can be insta-killed on pull - Shadow Labyrinth is a prime example, which I've run on heroic many times pre-patch with the same tank and never had a similar experience. The difference there is LoS--it's not as handy to pull those groups around a corner, so they didn't switch targets.
Perhaps the whole thing can just be explained by line of sight, and the ones that didn't appear to have a problem hitting the tank ended up on me because of a water shield proc from a glaive throw, or a totem proc, or an hourglass proc, or any number of other things. If I can get some people to help, I'll try to do some more controlled tests, but all I can really offer in the meantime is that it feels like it's generating some small amount of threat. I'll see if I can wrangle someone into helping out.
If it's not a water shield proc, the mana spring tick could still do it. As small as it is, the power gain does cause some global threat, so for the mobs that don't get hit by Avenger's Shield, it makes sense that a MS totem tick could cause you to pull aggro.
I'd say eliminate any power gains and see if it still happens. If you've already done this, then I'm as confused as you are.
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.
Just want to know if the lovely flurry bonus is worth not getting more pieces from badges prior to me getting more gear via the T6 content we are on now.
To break the 4 piece bonus, the combined increase in EP of the upgrades you're switching to will need to exceed the value of the bonus.
The flurry bonus is worth 5 * 15.7 * your flurry uptime * your haste rating EP value.
So let's say your flurry uptime is 75%. If Haste Rating is worth 1.4 EP, then the bonus is worth 82 EP. I seriously doubt the badge chestpiece is an 82 EP upgrade for you...so unless you intend on swapping 2 or 3 pieces, I'd stick with the chest.
There's a conversation regarding this on the previous page.
Ah, my apologies, not sure how I missed that. Rob's comment seems to be along the lines of what I was suspecting.
So, is there way to get accurate EP values for expertise values between 13 and 23? (assuming the cap is still considered 23). It seems just because the sim is hitting the cap, I shouldn't lower the value of each point until I hit the cap. Or is the only real way to just compare DPS values for any changes in gear involving exp items?
Edit:
I did some math to figure out what the EP should be with the given results from the sim. I made the assumption that the sim basically takes the change in DPS from adding 10 Exp, and then divides it by (10 * DPS per EP). If I'm at 16 expertise, I'd have to "undo" this calculation part way to get the DPS change, then divide by (7 * DPS per EP). The change in DPS as well as the DPS per EP both cancel out, and I'm left with the formula:
real Expertise EP = (10*EP)/(23-Exp)
where EP is the amount shown in Yo's sim, and Exp is the current amount of expertise I have. This results in an EP of 2.63 which is much more in line with what I would have expected, given the prior value of expertise.
You got it wrong. It's not that a 2.6s weapon makes Windfury proc MORE than a fast weapon, it's that a 2.6s weapon hits HARDER than a fast weapon. A fast weapon actually will proc windfury more often than a slow one; however, the cooldown means you're never going to get more than one proc every three seconds. This means you never get enough additional WF procs due to speed to make up for the lower damage of a fast weapon.
Besides; even without the WF cooldown, you'd get more benefit from a slower weapon due to Stormstrike.
Haste speeds a weapon up while keeping its damage constant. Thus, in addition to increasing your autoattack dps, you get the benefit of slightly increased Windfury procs without the penalty of doing less damage. Haste is a good thing; and the more hit/crit/armor pen/AP you have, the better it gets.
Hmm, I'm still not convinced, but then again I just might not be on the same page as everyone else here... /confused.
04/01/08, 6:32 AM
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