Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 338

Malan · 04/08/08, 3:28 PM

Find a raid boss and whack on it with some friends, come back with a combat log.

drumbum · 04/08/08, 4:05 PM

The rogue theorycrafters on these forums have come up with a 6.5% dodge rate on bosses (i.e. 103 expertise rating or 26 expertise), although I'm not sure where that originally was tested. You can see this is mentioned in the Roguecraft 101 thread. If your tests can either confirm or refute this, I'm sure we'd be glad to hear about your results.

If you're looking for reasonable test points, you should probably try 25 (6.25%) and 26 (6.5%) expertise.

NihilX · 04/08/08, 4:10 PM

Test 96 please, I've just tested 100 and I've got 0 dodges out of 187 swings, 96 windfury procs and 36 SS.

I know it's not a really relevant sample, however we bloody 1-shotted RoS, and as Mother is next I cannot test further tonight.

But as a focus strategy, get 96 tested first I think.

Vissi · 04/08/08, 4:49 PM

I will test 96 tonight. I looked through a couple of last weeks WWS parses added everything up and realized I was using different gear for Najentus, Terron and Bloodboil.

Akama was a really short test sample but here it is w/96:

Physical hits: 27 hits 2 parry 0 dodge
WindFury Hits: 9 hits 0 Parry 0 Dodge
Stormestrike hits: 6 hits 0 Parry 0 Dodge

Toots Hepcat · 04/08/08, 5:23 PM

100 = 25 Expertise = 6.25% reduction (NihilX shows no dodges)
96 = 24 Expertise = 6% reduction (Vissi shows no dodges)

This would refute those rogues' numbers, albeit with a small sample set. Still, I see no point in testing MORE than 100 for purposes of finding the dodge limit.

I'd like to see a parse with 22 Expertise (87-90 ER) and another with 21 Expertise (83-86 ER). If the number is 5.5%, we should see no dodges with 22, and few dodges with 21.

Shard + Belt + Ring = 89 (22 Expertise)

I don't think there are any combos for exactly 21 Expertise, but
gloves + rep neck + ring + belt = 81 (20 Experise)

NihilX · 04/08/08, 6:57 PM

As stated in my first post, I knew 92 would not be sufficient to cap expertise, as I had a previous parse clearly proving it.

Parse with 92 ER showed:

617 melee swings: 19 dodges 9 parries
291 WF procs: 1 dodge 1 parry
146 SS: 1 dodge 0 parry

Akama was indeed a very short test, we need a span of over 500 hits to have something concludent.
Remember that if you get only 1 dodge in no matter how many hits is sufficient to get the conclusion wanted - which is the cap limit.

From there we can use a higher number of parses with different expertise values (20, 21, 22...25,26 etc) and plot it nicely to check where an optimal balance would be, as not all items are good enough for regular use and would prove overall detrimental to gimp our stats for a 1-2% gap.

Kahdrick · 04/08/08, 7:27 PM

This thread will soon be closed. All the information has been moved to the Theorycraft Think Tank at Shaman: Enhancement.

Please update your links and note that the wiki is not to be used for questions/discussion. Post only corrections or change requests there. Discussion and questions ("guys should I use double syphon???") should go in a relevant thread here in the forums.

So at the risk of sounding like a complete moron, if discussion about theorycrafting is not to be done at the wiki page, and this thread (the theorycrafting thread) is about to be closed, does that mean that we are no longer permitted to discuss theorycrafting? I would assume not, but I don't see another thread that relates to the topic. Is a replacement thread going to be made when this is closed? Or should someone take it upon themselves?

-------------------

Also, Malan, I posted a correction in the wiki that was deleted (presumably because I did it in more of a "discussion" manner): The Skyguard Silver Cross is a pretty decent trinket (68 AEP not even counting the proc for an additional 120 AP after killing something - I figure it to be 128 AEP (50% uptime based on internal 1 min cooldown and 30s proc duration) for fights with numerous adds and 68 AEP on boss-only fights. In either case, it is certainly superior to some of the other listed trinkets (Romul's Poison Vial, for example). Since this is such an easy trinket to get, I think it would help out new enhance shammies to have its value expressly dictated to them.

(edit: I accidentally pointed the second comment at the wrong person originally... sorry!)

• Disquette · 04/08/08, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by Kahdrick

So at the risk of sounding like a complete moron, if discussion about theorycrafting is not to be done at the wiki page, and this thread (the theorycrafting thread) is about to be closed, does that mean that we are no longer permitted to discuss theorycrafting? I would assume not, but I don't see another thread that relates to the topic. Is a replacement thread going to be made when this is closed? Or should someone take it upon themselves?

This thread is for discussion of theorycrafting. The wiki article is for ideas which have made it through all the vetting, and resultantly we have consensus on the conclusion. This is our sandbox. That is our final painting at any given time.

Kahdrick · 04/08/08, 8:09 PM

Originally Posted by Disquette

This thread is for discussion of theorycrafting. The wiki article is for ideas which have made it through all the vetting, and resultantly we have consensus on the conclusion. This is our sandbox. That is our final painting at any given time.

Right, but this thread is going to be closed.

Nemaa · 04/08/08, 8:14 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

I'd like to see a parse with 22 Expertise (87-90 ER) and another with 21 Expertise (83-86 ER). If the number is 5.5%, we should see no dodges with 22, and few dodges with 21.

I'm in 22 expertise (5.5% reduction) for more than two weeks and I saw dodges. Recount says usually 1-1.5% of my attacks were dodged.

But check my post here:
http://elitistjerks.com/692944-post8196.html

Malan · 04/08/08, 9:11 PM

Originally Posted by NihilX

Test 96 please, I've just tested 100 and I've got 0 dodges out of 187 swings, 96 windfury procs and 36 SS.

I know it's not a really relevant sample, however we bloody 1-shotted RoS, and as Mother is next I cannot test further tonight.

You are aware that RoS cannot dodge while casting right? It sort of negates testing for dodge on that particular mob.

Originally Posted by Kahdrick

So at the risk of sounding like a complete moron, if discussion about theorycrafting is not to be done at the wiki page, and this thread (the theorycrafting thread) is about to be closed, does that mean that we are no longer permitted to discuss theorycrafting? I would assume not, but I don't see another thread that relates to the topic. Is a replacement thread going to be made when this is closed? Or should someone take it upon themselves?

-------------------

Also, Malan, I posted a correction in the wiki that was deleted (presumably because I did it in more of a "discussion" manner):

Yes that's why it was removed, someone should figure it out and then post the relevant info to the wiki for addition.

This thread is going to be closed because its a frigging monstrosity that prevents people from really finding any information in it, or even being able to follow it at the pace it moves. Someone will just need to start up new threads after this, Boethius' hope is that instead of "Enhance Shaman Mega Thread" we will have "Shaman thread subtopic 1" and "Shaman thread subtopic 2" and so on and so forth.

NihilX · 04/08/08, 9:21 PM

Yes, was aware RoS is not the ideal candidate for that kind of test of course, but was out of bosses at the time.

Just completed a very late night Kara run now and I got dodged while using the 100 ER setup twice in 362 melee swings, thus concluding dodge cap is either 103 as rogues figured it out, or 108 (highly improbable to be honest).

Spasticon · 04/09/08, 1:12 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Yes that's why it was removed, someone should figure it out and then post the relevant info to the wiki for addition.

This thread is going to be closed because its a frigging monstrosity that prevents people from really finding any information in it, or even being able to follow it at the pace it moves. Someone will just need to start up new threads after this, Boethius' hope is that instead of "Enhance Shaman Mega Thread" we will have "Shaman thread subtopic 1" and "Shaman thread subtopic 2" and so on and so forth.

So I have been reading through the thread for Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality infos and haven't found much. Is there info posted on the wiki (which I can't find a link to and am assuming because it's not fully public yet) which isn't in the thread? Are you able to provide the link to the wiki yet?

P.S. thanks for all the hard work. You guys make being enhancement fulfilling.

Vissi · 04/09/08, 2:31 AM

Wow Web Stats

5 Doges on the night w/96.

Physical:

2411 hits 11 parry 5 Dodge

Windfury:

970 hits 0 parry 0 dodge

Stormstrike:

567 hits 1 parry 0 dodge

Kletha · 04/09/08, 2:57 AM

Originally Posted by Spasticon

Is there info posted on the wiki (which I can't find a link to and am assuming because it's not fully public yet) which isn't in the thread? Are you able to provide the link to the wiki yet?

P.S. thanks for all the hard work. You guys make being enhancement fulfilling.

You didn't check the first page.

EDIT: Also, Malan. I can't seem to find a change log on the Wiki. It's soo much easier to just check that section if anything new has come than to read the entire thing through.

Simprider · 04/09/08, 3:36 AM

Originally Posted by Nemaa

I'm in 22 expertise (5.5% reduction) for more than two weeks and I saw dodges. Recount says usually 1-1.5% of my attacks were dodged.

Confirmed with same amount of expertise.

Zula · 04/09/08, 7:16 AM

I read this thread very often to see if there is something new in simulation, or in weight stats for the EP calculation.
About weapon i have something to say: the dps of a weapon is the number that identify the medium damage (for example 97,5 of a [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]. But this weapon has a range of dps (177-330) that has a lower one of 177.

another weapon [Claw of Molten Fury] is usually consider a wrong choice but it has a range of 216-325 so the minimum is higher than 177.

Now, i know that there are other difference (like + hit rating, + ap etc etc) to consider in the choice of a weapon, but
have you consider in your simulation that a closer range means a costant dps? and a wide range (like the merciless one) means that you do some swing whit very low damage from the weapon? or maybe you think that is not rilevant?

I'm sorry for my english, i'm italian and i don't write in english often

Rhaegal · 04/09/08, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Zula

I read this thread very often to see if there is something new in simulation, or in weight stats for the EP calculation.
About weapon i have something to say: the dps of a weapon is the number that identify the medium damage (for example 97,5 of a [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]. But this weapon has a range of dps (177-330) that has a lower one of 177.

another weapon [Claw of Molten Fury] is usually consider a wrong choice but it has a range of 216-325 so the minimum is higher than 177.

Now, i know that there are other difference (like + hit rating, + ap etc etc) to consider in the choice of a weapon, but
have you consider in your simulation that a closer range means a costant dps? and a wide range (like the merciless one) means that you do some swing whit very low damage from the weapon? or maybe you think that is not rilevant?

I'm sorry for my english, i'm italian and i don't write in english often

Watch your terminology a bit. DPS = damage per second, and describes the 97.5 on the S2 mace, whereas the actual damage is 177-330.

Anyway, the range on a weapon's damage is irrelevant, as its actual damage will average out over time. (Specifically, those little Windfuries and Stormstrikes you get on the low-end of the range will be offset by big ones that fall on the high end.) You can pretty much ignore the actual damage values (e.g., 177-330 vs. 216-325) and focus only on the DPS (97.5 vs. 100.2, with the 100.2 being superior) and the speed (2.6 vs. 2.7, where 2.7 is superior). Even then, though, that just gives you a quick estimate of which will be better, ignoring stats--your best bet is always to use Yo!'s sim. In this case, the S2 mace has ever so slightly better stats, almost certainly not enough to overcome the DPS and speed difference, but again, the sim is how you can find out for sure.

Toots Hepcat · 04/09/08, 10:51 AM

Zula, over time you're going to roll high with the same frequency as you're going to roll low.

Thus, the damage range plays no role in PvE DPS. Consistency may be another issue, though one assumes there are so many other random factors -- the attack table, windfury, on-hit/crit procs, etc -- that "consistency" in weapon damage will be almost undetectible. Choosing a weapon with lower dps but a tighter range will result in something detectible -- less overall DPS.

But why is the Claw a wrong choice? It's a trash drop, and may be a bit better than Rising Tide thanks to being a bit slower. Besides, if it's better than what you got, pick it up!

Malan · 04/09/08, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Kletha

EDIT: Also, Malan. I can't seem to find a change log on the Wiki. It's soo much easier to just check that section if anything new has come than to read the entire thing through.

Down at the very bottom of the article there's a row of buttons, one of which says History. Takes you here - http://elitistjerks.com/nuwiki.php?do=history&t=20765 where you can view diffs of recent changes.

Yakout · 04/09/08, 12:46 PM

The History link does not, alas, work; one suspects it's only usable by those with editing privileges on the wiki. (I.e., going to the wiki page I don't even see said row of buttons.)

Malan · 04/09/08, 1:51 PM

I'll mention that to Boethius, the diffs should be visible to everyone.

Ardonomus · 04/09/08, 7:17 PM

With regards to the expertise stuff, here's a combat log of tonights raid up to Mother. The log is a bit messed up, I dont know what happened, perhaps I did something wrong or it's just the natural progression of the 2.4 Beta WWS client. It's worth noting that I didn't start recording after Naj'entus due to the simple fact that I forgot to do /combatlog!

107 Expertise Rating (27 Expertise, 6.75%), no dodges. Pacifier - WWS
Expertise gear used:
[Shard of Contempt]
[Shapeshifter's Signet]
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
[Gloves of the Searing Grip]

I'll do tomorrows raid (Finish BT, start Hyjal) with 103 rating (26 Expertise, -6.50%)and see if I get any dodges then.
Expertise gear going to be used:
[Shard of Contempt]
[Shapeshifter's Signet]
[Brooch of Deftness]
[Gloves of the Searing Grip]

Hopefully I'll remember to /combatlog at zone-in tomorrow.

• Shinanigans · 04/10/08, 12:21 AM

Alright, I have read a ton of shit on the topic, but I just want to come back to the masters before I come to final conclusion.

I am currently sitting at 211 passive haste rating and 111 hit. I have read on the WoW Shaman forums that a complete hit cap (221 hit) is needed to be reached in order for anything over 200 haste rating to actual make a very solid impact on white damage.

Current Haste Gear (211 haste rating):

[Cloak of Fiends]
[Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes]
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
[Grips of Damnation]
[Band of Devastation] X 2
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]

I can drop both of my rings for some less stellar ones to drop my haste rating down to 149 if that would help my overall DPS. The two rings that I would replace them with are [Vindicator's Band of Triumph] [Band of Eternity] (The Revered version).

My main question to you all is whether it is true that you must be hit capped (Not sure if this exists at 221. Just going off what I read.) for 211 haste rating to be truly effective? If you do need to be hit capped for it, how much haste rating could I get away with with 111 hit rating?

Thank you very much for your time and guidance.

Shakkha · 04/10/08, 5:22 AM

Welcome to the no-offhand club! Stinky thing only dropped the one time i was sitting out. :s

However I agree, Brutallus is the new patchwerk for melee dps, quite a fun benchmark.

Too bad wws seems bugged for pet damage at the moment your hunter did a lot more damage that showed here i hope for him.

Our wws for yesterday's kill is bugged as hell for that, but if you want to something to compare yours: Wow Web Stats

It would be nice if you guys could link some of your brutallus kills i think it's interesting, although the current buggy state of wws make it somewhat hard to be relevant, our hunters all performed better than showed.

Still it's interesting to see the difference between 7 and 8 healers setup imo.