Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 341

Artoxia · 04/14/08, 7:55 AM

Hello (first post ever :-) )

At first, i want to say "thanks" to all who brought up this Theroycraft for enhancement shamans. Since i started playing my shaman, i came here to get anwers for my questions.

Link to my Character if you want to have a Look:
The World of Warcraft Armory

What I want to discuss is the choice of weapons.

In your post, you recommend that Vanir's Righ Fist would be the best choice (except from Season3 Weapon) for main hand. After we got the new badge vendor on our realm, I switched from my old combination (rising Tide / Syphon) to Vanir's / Syphon. As expected, I mentioned an increase of DPS.

I used Yo's simulator (Crazy Shaman's DPS Calculator) to proof my new combination of weapons. The result was around 1380 DPS (6200 boss armor). I changed the setup to "dual syphon" (replaced Vanir's stats by Syphon stats). Against my expectations, the DPS result was higher (1460 DPS).

I don't know, how the simulator works and how reliable it is... do you think that Syphon/Syphon could be still the best combination for me?

A short overview for my stats:

1718 AttackPower
29.32 % Crit
111 Hitrating

With best regards,

Artoxia

Ardonomus · 04/14/08, 8:59 AM

I had some strange values with regards to weapon choice as well. I ended up at Vanir's MH and Syphon OH would be the best for me now. This combo was superior even to S3/S3, which I found to be strange so I'm not convinced this is correct.

Artoxia · 04/14/08, 9:40 AM

Originally Posted by Ardonomus

I had some strange values with regards to weapon choice as well. I ended up at Vanir's MH and Syphon OH would be the best for me now. This combo was superior even to S3/S3, which I found to be strange so I'm not convinced this is correct.

Do you have 2 Syphons to make some tests? If you can believe in the results of Yo's simulator, the Syphon/Syphon combo can be even better than Vanir's/Syphon....

I'm still waiting for my second Syphon.. therefore I cant give it a try at the moment...

◊ Wraithlin · 04/14/08, 9:41 AM

Some weapon speeds interact in unusual ways, for me the badge MH is a downgrade from the MH claw Al'ar drops.

Artoxia · 04/14/08, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Wraithlin

Some weapon speeds interact in unusual ways, for me the badge MH is a downgrade from the MH claw Al'ar drops.

Can't confirm that... my experiences show that Vanir's > rising tide > al'ar MH

Malan · 04/14/08, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by stabbymcgee

I would have to guess it would be a ((200 * 10 * 0.9)/60) or 30EP for the aldor proc. This is, of course, figuring it's a 0.9 ppm.

Bah too bad, guess it was too much to hope for an upgrade over [Choker of Serrated Blades] which comes in at around 130 EP. The stats on the SSO neck are worth around 90, so a decent item for a T5 shaman at most.

Multiple runs of the sims just now with my stats showed the 2 badge weapons to be about equivalent to using a Rising Tide and Syphon combo. Swapping a badge weapon for either the Tide or Syphone brought my average DPS down a little bit, but it was capable of hitting the same numbers in the sim as my normal weapons. I wouldn't say the badge weapons are "best" by any means, they're simply a way for non-T6 shaman to pick up 2 weapon upgrades rapidly. Anyone with T6 weapons is probably better off sticking with them.

Artoxia · 04/14/08, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Bah too bad, guess it was too much to hope for an upgrade over [Choker of Serrated Blades] which comes in at around 130 EP. The stats on the SSO neck are worth around 90, so a decent item for a T5 shaman at most.

Multiple runs of the sims just now with my stats showed the 2 badge weapons to be about equivalent to using a Rising Tide and Syphon combo. Swapping a badge weapon for either the Tide or Syphone brought my average DPS down a little bit, but it was capable of hitting the same numbers in the sim as my normal weapons. I wouldn't say the badge weapons are "best" by any means, they're simply a way for non-T6 shaman to pick up 2 weapon upgrades rapidly. Anyone with T6 weapons is probably better off sticking with them.

Maybe you should add this to your entrance posting. There you recommend Vanir's as the best choice after the Season3 axe...

Tuili · 04/14/08, 11:52 AM

Remove please. Lag doubled the post, sorry.

Tuili · 04/14/08, 11:52 AM

Best combo in game now for me is to get the Mount H trash [Claw of Molten Fury] for Main Hand and to put my Syphon in the off hand. Never underestimate:

1. The power of slow weapons. (This combo is (2.7 / 2.8) Top damage > all
2. The power of a slightly faster weapon in the MH. Not a big thing, but it does give more MH WFs in the long run.

Putting the 2.6 ~108 dps Mounting V in OH (in the sim) gives less total DPS on my 10.000 hours + sims.

Malan · 04/14/08, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Artoxia

Maybe you should add this to your entrance posting. There you recommend Vanir's as the best choice after the Season3 axe...

That's not what it says at all.
Shaman: Enhancement

Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality from the Sunwell badge vendor is simulated at within ~10 dps of the Season 3 weapons.

It doesn't say its the best choice other than a S3. I'll reword it since people insist on reading into things, but its really slightly less dps than any of the T6 weapons.

◊ Wraithlin · 04/14/08, 12:05 PM

I would say the badge weapons are basically a victory for the "Use the simulator crowd".

My numbers:
Talon + S1 axe: 1630
Badge MH+ S1 axe: 1627
Talon + Badge OH: 1655
Badge MH + OH: 1648

People are going to have to plug in numbers and see what happens.

Malan · 04/14/08, 12:11 PM

Right and my figures were like this (numbers are lower than Wraiths in part because I don't get Kings on raids) -
Rising Tide + Syphon - 1580
Rising Tide + Badge OH - 1575
Badge MH + Syphon - 1578-1580

I didn't check replacing both, but its definitely not worth replacing 1 of the weapons at a time.

Toots Hepcat · 04/14/08, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Wraithlin

Some weapon speeds interact in unusual ways, for me the badge MH is a downgrade from the MH claw Al'ar drops.

"Some weapon speeds," dunno what you mean by this. In my testing, for weapons slower than 2.2s, moving from a slow weapon to a fast weapon decreases TOTAL melee dps by a factor of about .5-.6% per .1s faster. Thus, a 2.7s weapon is going to do about 1% more total damage than a 2.5s weapon.

This 1% reflects the fact that your SS and WF damage will be lessened slightly with a faster weapon, and that this has a compound effect on the rest of your stats. E.g. you get more out of each point of AP, each percentage of crit rating, with a slower weapon.

This should be the only "interaction" needed to explain why sims show the Al'ar talon as being best-in-game. You also may have stats that weigh crit rating higher than haste.

Also:

Originally Posted by Tulli

1. The power of slow weapons. (This combo is (2.7 / 2.8) Top damage > all
2. The power of a slightly faster weapon in the MH. Not a big thing, but it does give more MH WFs in the long run.

1) "Top damage" means nothing. Only DPS.
2) No, it bloody well does not. Even if you did MH proc more -- which is debatable -- and even if hitting more offset the damage lost from using a faster weapon -- which it can't -- one undocumented simulation wouldn't change the large body of theory that says with comparable 2.7/2.8s weapons, it really doesn't matter which hand they're in.

Pitbuller · 04/14/08, 12:44 PM

Rising mh + sunwell oh = 1706
Badge mh + sunwell oh = 1719
Syphon mh + sunwell oh = 1714

Syphon get par when calculating proc for 5dps.

I gonna still keep syphon.

All T6 weapons is almoust par(again) and we can't just say what is best combo for all shamans. Use what you got.

Toots Hepcat · 04/14/08, 12:52 PM

More importantly, if we're talking about badge weapons, what's important is getting the best bang for your badge. If a weapon is 105 badges, and only a 5 dps upgrade, then at .25 EP/DPS it's a .19 EP/Badge upgrade. Meanwhile, a Bold Crimson Spinel is a .29 EP/Badge upgrade.

That OH fist is an insane bargain from this perspective.

Tuili · 04/14/08, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat

1) "Top damage" means nothing. Only DPS.

Now we both know if that were true [Fang of Kalecgos] would be the best shammy weapon... But ok. Top damage was the wrong phrasing I guess. What I mean is out of two weapons with the same DPS the slower one will be the best choice: 1. Because of the WF mechanic 2. Because the damage done when the weapon hits is more important than the damage done over time. That's what I meant by top damage. Call it average hit damage or whatever.

Tuili · 04/14/08, 1:35 PM

From the original Collected Works:
For PvE, either [Enchant Boots - Boar's Speed] or [Enchant Boots - Cat's Swiftness] are going to be big payoffs. Increased run speed is hands down the best enchant you can get for PvE.

Good tip! I had the cat one for a while, until my guild started doing Black Temple regularly. After a few runs I swapped to Surefooted and it's the best DPS buff ever. Supremus trash, Teron trash, bloodboil trash... they all have snare effects that render both the agility and the swiftness enchants worthless. I even had my pvp trinket equipped to be able to get out of them. Surefooted has a surprisingly high proc rate and I'm often free as a bird when the other melee get rooted. Mind you we do have dispellers, but their focus is mainly the tanks/OTs. I guess you want the math on this now. I'll keep it in mind for the next run.

Malan · 04/14/08, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by Tuili

After a few runs I swapped to Surefooted and it's the best DPS buff ever

Is this a joke?

• Daler · 04/14/08, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by Tuili

From the original Collected Works:
For PvE, either [Enchant Boots - Boar's Speed] or [Enchant Boots - Cat's Swiftness] are going to be big payoffs. Increased run speed is hands down the best enchant you can get for PvE.

Good tip! I had the cat one for a while, until my guild started doing Black Temple regularly. After a few runs I swapped to Surefooted and it's the best DPS buff ever. Supremus trash, Teron trash, bloodboil trash... they all have snare effects that render both the agility and the swiftness enchants worthless. I even had my pvp trinket equipped to be able to get out of them. Surefooted has a surprisingly high proc rate and I'm often free as a bird when the other melee get rooted. Mind you we do have dispellers, but their focus is mainly the tanks/OTs. I guess you want the math on this now. I'll keep it in mind for the next run.

First, agility has no effect on snares whatsoever (and vice versa). Second, taking a boot enchant for performance on trash as opposed to performance on boss is the exact opposite of what you should be doing. Now, bringing two pairs of boots, one with each, might make sense for some cases. But the speed increase will vastly outperform 10 hit rating on bosses, which should be your gearing priority.

fangar · 04/14/08, 1:52 PM

I think what he is referring to is that if you are snared and not DPSing you do not benefit from the agi or run speed as you are just sitting there.

Of course my response, is who cares about trash DPS? That and find new priests if they cannot dispel you with the changes made to mass dispel. Using Surefooted, while cutesy for those limited situations where you get frost novaed is just short sited. If getting rooted is your fear then start raiding with 300+ Frost resistance and never fear getting rooted.

Cabal · 04/14/08, 2:33 PM

Everyone seems to be dismissing the Scryer version of the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] as rubbish. However, i bought it for kicks, and took it for some kalecgos, and trash leading up to, attempts. I have to say it doesnt seem all that bad. My other necklace is [Choker of Serrated Blades], which from stats alone gives me 26 more EP. But i was getting arcane strikes (the proc name), for an impressive 940+, critical. And recount was telling me it had around a 30% chance to crit. The lowest i had non crit was 410. And being magical damage, it is not mitigated by armor (i was however getting it dodged). It is, I should think, getting benefited by things like curse of shadows, misery, etc.

Granted, im terrible at math, im not even going to try to quantify the proc into AEP. But from my experience, and if you dont have best in slot necklaces, like me, it seems at least decent.

Just my experience with it, since i hadnt read much about others actually trying it out, instead of instantly dismissing it and cursing being scryer.

Malan · 04/14/08, 2:43 PM

Originally Posted by Cabal

And recount was telling me it had around a 30% chance to crit.

Lets say you had 3 procs. 1 of them crit. Recount says 30%. That doesn't mean it has a 30% crit rate, that means that 30% of your observed procs were crits, and for very low numbers of procs this number becomes pretty inflated. Its the same reason people flip out when they see something like a 15% dodge rate on Storm Strike, until its pointed out that their WWS parse only had like 10 total Storm Strikes. You need a much larger sample size.

Here's a comment from WoWHead -

Just done an hour long test of the Aldor version, with my feral druid, whacking the Servant of Grol with an unmodified 1.0s attack speed.

*
In 60 minutes (3600 seconds), it procced 71 times.
*
On average, it took 51 seconds to proc again (45 seconds of which was the internal cooldown)
*
It therefore had an uptime of (710/3600*100) 19.722%.
*
This gives an average base AP increase of (0.19722*200) 39.44 AP.
*
Therefore, the Equip: bonus is roughly equivalent to 20 strength (or 40, for rogues).

It's worth bearing in mind that using specials will likely reduce the time taken slightly (to a minimum of 45 seconds), increasing the overall AP gain slightly.

If this guy's testing is accurate then the Pendant of Might (Aldor) is basically equivalent to the Choker of Serrated Blades.

Cabal · 04/14/08, 3:12 PM

My fault for not being more specific, that 30% came after around 4 hours of raiding sunwell plateau, forgot to check number of procs as raid ended somewhat late. I will try it again tonight, for more demon on dragon action, and will report back with more accurate numbers. Unfortunately i also have no WWS to present for yesterday, as the one who takes care of it forgot to make a log...

• promdates · 04/14/08, 3:31 PM

Thats basically it Malan. I believe with the T6 values, the Hyjal trash neck is about 132.xx, with the aldor might being about 124.xx. Almost on par essentially. Its a good neck for a shaman not in T6 content, so there you go.

[e] My math could be wrong on the EP value on the proc. Its almost the same proc as Hourglass, so I used that math. 200ap for 10 seconds with about a 1ppm.

Malan · 04/14/08, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Cabal

My fault for not being more specific, that 30% came after around 4 hours of raiding sunwell plateau, forgot to check number of procs as raid ended somewhat late. I will try it again tonight, for more demon on dragon action, and will report back with more accurate numbers. Unfortunately i also have no WWS to present for yesterday, as the one who takes care of it forgot to make a log...

Kalecgos is a horrible fight to test anything on if you aren't personally logging it, anyone on a different portal rotation than you is out of logging range.

@stabby - both the neck and the Hourglass have a 45 second cooldown, they aren't pure PPM trinkets.