Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 342

• promdates · 04/14/08, 3:41 PM

Yea, but your math shows a 0.9ppm according to the TTT thread. Perhaps that should be revised then?

Malan · 04/14/08, 3:46 PM

Hm that's true. I don't follow that stuff enough to know if it works out to be the same thing, I just posted the agreed upon figures!

shockeffect · 04/15/08, 12:26 AM

My guild is currently 3/4 tk and 5/6 ssc, and with the new badge vendor finally up i am getting the badge OH for 45 badges. My MH is breeching comet, as this is actually mostly an offset for me, cause my guild is low on geared resto shams. I was wondering tho, if at this point it would be worthwhile for me to put executioner on my new OH, as it will likely be with me for a while, as opposed to dual mongoose (mongoose is already on my MH).

• Philondra · 04/15/08, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by shockeffect

My guild is currently 3/4 tk and 5/6 ssc, and with the new badge vendor finally up i am getting the badge OH for 45 badges. My MH is breeching comet, as this is actually mostly an offset for me, cause my guild is low on geared resto shams. I was wondering tho, if at this point it would be worthwhile for me to put executioner on my new OH, as it will likely be with me for a while, as opposed to dual mongoose (mongoose is already on my MH).

This has been answered multiple times. Read the Theorycraft Wiki section regarding the break even point of Executioner vs. Mongoose. Failing that, run Yo!'s simulator to see results for your gear setup.

(Hint: If your guild hasn't even set foot in BT, it's unlikely that you have a high amount of armor penetration on your gear.)

Bragor · 04/15/08, 10:41 AM

Well Just came back From using Yo's Sim for the weapon Choices :

2xSyphons : 1669 DPS
Badges Fist MH/Syphon OH : 1681 DPS
Badges Fist MH/Sunwell Trash Fist OH : 1697 DPS

Decent upgrade I would say if you can't get the S3 weapons (Or S4 weapons when they are released).

Artoxia · 04/15/08, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Bragor

Double post.

Delete it If Possible.

Can you post your enhancer stats? I would be interested how far they differ from my stats. For my stats, the Syphon / Syphon combination would lead to a better damage output than Badge Fist MH / Syphon OH...

my actual stats:

1770 AP
29.70% Crit
111 Hit
0 Expertise
140 Armor Penetration

based on 333 Strengh and 442 Agility.

Malan · 04/15/08, 11:23 AM

You know you can just click his armory link and view them yourself right?

Bragor · 04/15/08, 11:46 AM

Don't think thats possible Malan since I speced resto for Brut last night.

Anywhy off of my mind :

1780+ AP
18.9% hit (From Both gear & Talents)
126 ArP
33.89% Crit.
2.35% Haste
11 Expertise

I will correct them once I respec as enhancement.

Malan · 04/15/08, 11:59 AM

I've got around 300 more armor pen than you and 2% more haste, about 100 less AP and 3% less crit, and the sim shows a definite DPS drop from replacing a syphon with a badge weapon.

Bragor · 04/15/08, 12:29 PM

Stats without holding any weapons are:

AP : 1692
Haste : 2.35%
ArP : 126
Hit Rating : 153
Expertise Rating : 44

Trinkets Used : Berserkers Call, Shard of Contempt.

Weapon Enchants : Executioner On MH, Mongoose On OH.

Raid target : Level 73 Boss With 7700 Armor (Can anybody confirm that Brut is a 8800 armor boss ?)

Raid Buffs : Kings, Improved Might, Improved Mark Of The Wild, Faerie Fire, Curse Of Recklessness, Expose Weakness, Battle Shout, Blood Frenzy, Sunder Armor, Retri Pala buffs, Haste Potion, Roasted Clefthoof Meet, Flask Of Relentless Assualt (Might Change it to Demonslaying elixir).

Raid Buffs Not Included in the Calculations: Leader Of The Pack

Still Showing a ~15 DPS increase if I put the MH badge Fist instead of a Syphon.

Jessamy · 04/15/08, 12:35 PM

Your trinket table in the wiki has Romulo's Poison Vial listed twice. Also, Mark of Vindication has slightly better EP value (54) at t4 & t5 coefficients (and into t6 content there's much better available than either).

horde version
alliance version

Also I know it's off-topic but I can't figure out how to make a signature. I'd like to include my shaman's armory link in my posts for credibility.

Skrummel · 04/15/08, 1:05 PM

I am doing ZA and we got lynx boss down, and we heard that the offtank should not be hitting the boss because any parries resets timer for swings done by boss. Does Windfury totem procs reset the swing timer as well, or is the proc avoiding that mechanic?

Jessamy · 04/15/08, 1:12 PM

Bosses can't parry attacks made from behind. Melee DPS attacks from behind.

Skrummel · 04/15/08, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Jessamy

Bosses can't parry attacks made from behind. Melee DPS attacks from behind.

True, but it's more concerning the tank who is getting the totem, he will also proc from the totem, and will that proc reset the timer?

Rhaegal · 04/15/08, 1:32 PM

Parries don't reset the swing timer, they speed up the current swing. More info: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t15257-m...rry_mechanics/

And whether a hit is from Windfury or not is irrelevant. If either of the WF hits gets parried, then yes, it'll speed up the boss's swing timer. If neither the WF hit or the hit that procced it get parried, then it won't. Yes, WF will increase the chance a parry will happen, but that's only because the OT will be hitting the boss more, not because of special parry-inducing mechanic of Windfury. On the other hand, if the OT turns off his autoattack, he won't induce any parries whatsoever, regardless of whether or not he has Windfury.

[e] Apparently I fail at grammar right after lunch.

Kalyke · 04/15/08, 1:39 PM

Originally Posted by Skrummel

True, but it's more concerning the tank who is getting the totem, he will also proc from the totem, and will that proc reset the timer?

Windfury Procs can be dodged, parried, blocked just like any other melee attack. If the Windfury Proc is parried by the boss the same hasting of the boss's next attack will occur. It is not a reset of the boss's swing timer, rather when the boss parries, his next melee attack is hasted by up to 40% depending on where the boss was within the current swing cycle. You can read up more about the hasting aspect of parry in the Protection Warrior mechanics thread. I'm sure it's listed in other areas too but that is where I read up on it.

It's really a matter of balance though, WF totem will help your tank with threat (assuming Warrior tank here since the other tanks would get different totems). If your tank is getting wtfpwned from spike damage then you may not want to give WF which could increase the chances of significant tank spike damage. If your tank(s) are doing alright and not having issues with spike damage, then more threat is always better. Tanks can counteract parry spike damage from bosses by incorporating weapon expertise into their gear as well. Boss parry percentages are used in tuning bosses and are often rather high, 10-15%+ so they probably won't be able to negate parries with expertise but they can diminish it significantly.

Malan · 04/15/08, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jessamy

Your trinket table in the wiki has Romulo's Poison Vial listed twice. Also, Mark of Vindication has slightly better EP value (54) at t4 & t5 coefficients (and into t6 content there's much better available than either).

Its a problem that Boethius is looking into with the table code.

A	B	C
1	2	3

With the header row it duplicates the bottom row.
With no header it appears fine.

A	B	C
1	2	3

I am not going to list each and every single trinket out there, its already a pain in the ass to maintain. Romulo's is only the because people take it all the time and so its an illustration of the lower value of hit.

Skrummel · 04/15/08, 1:52 PM

Thanks for clarifying these things, it definitely makes more sense to me now.

And will help choose appropriate totem depending on tank's gear.

Edit: But there is something I'm not sure on here though, if WF procs is an either/or concerning parries, why would the chance be higher for a parry to occur?

gorsameth · 04/15/08, 2:45 PM

The chance will not be higher but the tank will make more attacks and so will get parried more often.

But the only reason to drop a wf totem for a tank is if threat is an issue. Peronaly i prefer GoA altough i am never with the tanks.

Rhaegal · 04/15/08, 2:52 PM

The chance each hit will be parried is exactly the same no matter what kind of hit it is (unless there's some weird talent I don't know about, like the 41 point combat talent for rogues, but for parry). Windfury just adds another hit that also has a chance to be parried. If one hit has a 10% chance to be parried, then two hits have a ~19% chance for one of them to be parried. Again, Windfury doesn't increase the chance for each hit to be parried, it just increases the number of hits that can be parried, which will result in a net increase in total number of parries. The percentage of hits that are parried remains the same.

Mengus · 04/15/08, 4:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bragor

Stats without holding any weapons are:

ArP : 126

Trinkets Used : Berserkers Call, Shard of Contempt.
Weapon Enchants : Executioner On MH, Mongoose On OH.
Still Showing a ~15 DPS increase if I put the MH badge Fist instead of a Syphon.

You might wanna try doing 2x Mongoose in the sim, as with your Armor Pen, I'd suspect you'll see better results with Mongoose over Executioner. That could be one of the factors differeing between you and Malan.

◊ Wraithlin · 04/15/08, 5:47 PM

Sebudai said earlier that because of the way the simulator handles haste pots, he was being put in to the speed range where haste had a very low AEP. Is it possible that this is affecting the value of the badge weapons which both carry a fair chunk of hast rating ? Has anyone run the numbers without haste pots turned on ?

• sordee · 04/15/08, 5:53 PM

TLDR intro:
So this started with me using the accepted beliefs that 100dps 2.6 or greater weapons are god, and better than the Badge items. And the current enhance was speculating to get the Vanir's Left and replace his Rising Tide. And, I'm like, uh, Rising Tide is better, clearly. Read the EJ thread, etc... But then he pointed me to some EP calculation page and showed Rising Tide as being lower than Fury. And I'm like that is totally bogus. But of course that got me going to the sim to prove him and everything else wrong. Also I forgotten too much in thread, so I figured the Sim should be gospel, no?

So on to a few Sim tests. Tests were avg of 3x1000hrs.

Base stats used:
Tauren Shaman
AP = 1640
Cr = 27.17
Haste = 2.35
Expertise = 11
Hit = 15%
Dual Mongoose, Shard of Contempt, Bezerker's Call

1) First task, with his current Setup: Is Sypon/Rising Tide better or worse than Rising Tide/Syphon. (i.e. does 2.8/2.6 matter vs 2.6/2.8)

Syphon/RT = 1289
RT/Syphon = 1288

Huh, virtual dead heat. 1DPS difference? So does order really matter? Or is sim not able to detect a difference? (And what happened to you wanted faster in the MH theory?)

2) Lets move on with the Syphon in the MH and add the OH Badge Item.

Initially when just subbing in increased Damage but slower speed for Rising Tide, i get:
Syphon/OH Badge = 1285
Ok a little bit lost by using the OH Badge, but oh wait, I forgot to add the Haste.

Syphon/OH Badge w/ 1.46 haste = 1298.

Wow, that's a bit of an eye opener.

3) Now for kicks, lets sub out the Syphon for a the MH Badge. Because surely the Syphon at 2.8 is still very good, right?

MH Badge/Oh Badge w/1.46 haste = 1284

But, whoops, forgot to add the 1% crit from the 23 agi and an additional 1.33 haste.(and -4 AP from Syphon)

MH Badge/OH Badge w/2.79 haste, 1%crit, -4 AP = 1306

Conclusions....: With the amount of haste on the Left and Right Fist, going by the Sim, it seems well over-compensate the faster speeds then all the T5/T6 weapons. Plus additional other stats make them better.
or.... The Sim is wrong?
Caveat: Haven't modeled the S3 weapons yet.

Edit 1: Is the starting haste value of 2.35, causing Haste to have a lot higher value?

Bragor · 04/15/08, 6:23 PM

WWS For Todays Brut Kill :

http://wowwebstats.com/pfksbfnavc625?s=11091-11466

Totem Twisting is in effect too.

Jessamy · 04/15/08, 6:52 PM

I was sure I had seen someone say that OH WF procs aren't subject to the OH damage penalty. However reading back through the history on this thread I find no such statement. Maybe my memory is making things up out of wishful thinking. Can anyone confirm this is true or definitely state this is not true?