Freefall

Im currently running with syphon/mounting vengeanse.

With my gear im seeing about 3-4dps increase in Yo's sim if i would change to badge MH but sim doesnt take the syphon's proc in count which seems to be around 5-6dps

With syphon im @
1746ap
33,72% crit
14,9% hit
679 armor pen
2,35% haste
6 expertise
DST/tsunami
dual mongoose (i know executioneer would give increase)

235 stre / 376 agi

 

Morelis

If my memory serves me correctly the damage added by the AP bonus on the WF proc is not subject to the OH penalty, the weapon damage however is.

 

vestibule

I am doing more DPS with the badge MH 2.5 speed or not. THese badge weapons are an enhanced shaman's wet dream if you haven't been to SW yet.

Like to see some real time data on S3 MH and MV OH

Ok thanks,

 

• sordee

Did a few more sims starting at 5% haste, and still see increases benefiting from the Haste using Badge Weapons over Syphon. However as Freefall points out, I was unable to factor in the dps from the Syphon proc. Is there a generally accepted value for this?

New updated sim numbers modeling S3 weapons.
BaseStats again (no weapons):
AP= 1600
Crit = 27%
Hit = 15%
Haste = 5% (base)
ArP = 1000 (Big jump from earlier model to more reflect some T6 gear)
Expertise = 11 (Using Shard as one trinket)

Naked w/o stats with Dual 2.6 - 103.1 DPS = 1377DPS

Adding dual S3 stats:
AP + 34x2
Crit + 1%x2
Hit + .5%x2
ArP + 49x2

Dual S3 with right stats = 1441DPS

Now lets run a dual Badge Weapon:
AP + 44 + 44
Crit + 1% (23 agi)
Hit + 1.33% (OH)
Haste + 1.33 + 1.46

Dual Badge Weapon w/ stats = 1439

And with a mixed setup: (pre SW)
S3 MH + Badge OH
AP + 34 + 44
Crit + 1%
Hit + .5 + 1.33%
Haste + 1.46
ArP + 49

S3 MH + Badge OH = 1440 DPS

Two observations: S3 is generally better since you get freebie Stam and Resillience. But DPS wise is virtually the same as MH.
Playing with different values of starting Armor Penetration (or adding Curse of Weakness) affects how valuable the 40 ArP on each S3 1-H is worth.

I will contend at lower ArP, Badge weapons are better, and higher ArP S3 will pull ahead.

 

Malan

Sordee - the Syphon proc is pretty negligible. Over the course of a full BT clear 2 weeks ago my syphon did 19k damage, less than 1% of my total damage for the entire evening.

I will say this - your shaman that said Rising Tide is worse than the ZA fist weapon is flat out wrong on that one.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

• Philondra

This is in response to Jessamy as well, and is provided simply for historical reasons:

Pre 2.1 and the WF5/WF4 bug fix, the 50% offhand damage penalty was being applied twice: once to the damage dealt by the two windfury attacks (which was not a bug) and once to the attack power gained by the strikes (which was a bug). In other words, the main hand was getting the full 445 AP, whereas the offhand was only getting 222.5 AP -- and then getting reduced further once the offhand penalty was factored in. Therefore, given the exact same weapons in both hands, OH windfury attacks were actually dealing slightly less than 50% of the MH damage, rather than the expected 50%.

There are several reasons why most of the community didn't notice that this was occuring:
1.) It was much less common to have two of the same weapon equipped because pre-2.1 the only decent slow offhand weapons were from arena, heroics, or Tempest Keep (Al'ar)
2.) At higher levels of gear, that AP bonus gets lost in the noise unless one is specifically looking for it
3.) Even if people used the same weapons for MH/OH, most of us Min/Maxers used WF5/WF4, meaning that we were expecting that our OH WF damage would be slightly less than 50% of our MH WF damage.

 

Gehenna

Well, for a time now the shaman community has accepted a couple rules when considering weapons (unless I've missed the boat on that topic).

1: Slow Main hand weapons with high damage (syphon, talon) will perform well with WF and Stormstrike.

2: Slow off-hands can take less windfury procs from the main hand.

When looking at the very best choices, we know mounting vengeance is the best off-hand weapon, so will the badge main hand, creating a 2.5/2.6 scenario, outperform the higher damage of a S3 main hand in most situations? The main reason I would think this possible is the steadily increasing white damage numbers I have seen in recent WWS. I know I've gone from the low 40s to numbers around 50/51%.

Lastly, for two pages there was a rather drawn out conversation involving how weapon haste functions. It seems to me that haste should be rather simple to model with a simple asymptote right? At least its effects on white damage. Now, I haven't done much math for quite a few years, but I would think such a graph could demonstrate severe diminishing returns on haste at some (perhaps un-obtainable) point. Am i wrong?

 

• sordee

Right, and every thing I know tells me the same thing, so I thought he was ludicrous
But for reference, he pointed out this site, where someone has calculated MH/OH EP for many weapons:
Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman

And this was all in reference that he currently is using a Syphon/Rising Tide setup and was contemplating getting the Badge OH to replace the Rising Tide.
This is why I had to go to the sim directly to figure out the true numbers.

 

Pitbuller

Dragonstrike + Mounting = 1832
Syphon + Mounting = 1828

Even dragonstrike want "not so easy to choose which is best weapon club"
We should be happy that we have so much "best" weapons. It's darn easy to get weapon novaday.

About Sim: Can you Yo model haste potion like trinkets([Abacus of Violent Odds]). It's kinda slow get pair of ep numbers one without haste potions and one whit 400haste rating and sum them up(7/8 + 1/8).

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Kletha

Well, he also says that [Shiv of Exsanguination] is on 8th place for OH. This is a 1.8 speed dagger.

 

jrsama123

Did 1850 easily on Brutallus with 1 heroism. Sorry, didn't parse =(

 

Atren

Hmm, that dagger has lot of stats on as well as have clearly above others dps rating. But still, i do think it is too high in listing. Most likely culprit might be the speed modifier for his formula. Only way to verify would be to run them through simulator.

 

Malan

That website is a crock of shit.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

◊ Shalas

Weapon speed for enhancement shaman does not work that way, and any calculation involving that is pretty much worthless. That significantly overestimates the impact of changing speed for some ranges, and significantly underestimates it for other ranges.

 

Bragor

More like a complete overview of what is discussed on the blizzard forums. In Other Words, Bullshit.

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....63182wOceL.png

You never know, If you never try.

 

Jessamy

As far as I can tell, he took the EP values for 2.6 weapons, put them into a calculator or spreadsheet, and adjusted for differing weapon speeds. To quote the wiki,

I don't like the results his adjustment formula derived. Simulation would seem to be a more universal tool.

Edit: I also don't like how he only provides one column of "EJ EP" values. My shaman's gear is entry-level T5. It would be inappropriate for me to use T6 EP values to make gearing choices for upgrading my current gear.

 

Yakout

I think all that needs noted about that site's utility is that it puts [The Decapitator] above [Talon of the Phoenix] in for MH and [Breeching Comet] above [Rising Tide] for OH.

 

Malan

Which was noted to him when he posted that stuff in here a few months ago. Its inaccurate, its misleading, nobody should be basing their gear off of that site. If you have a shaman doing so, they need a swift kick in the ass.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Tornhoof

They are for certain, just look at any wws log and take a look at the min/max values.

http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

 

Tornhoof

I thought about Executioner a bit, the reason is quite simple, currently in weo2, executioner is a simple 0.35*840 armorPen (35% uptime), but ArmorPen gets better the more you get and so it's not a really a constant value of armorpen, but a short dps spike. The question is now how can I find a closed form to model this short dps spike.

The idea is simple: Take the dmg increase by 840 ArmorPen in percent, multiple with uptime (35%) and calculate the new armor reduction:

exec_armorpen := 840;
exec_uptime := 0.35;
armor_after := armor_before - exec_armorpen;
dmgincrease := ((armor_before + 10557.5)/(armor_after+10557.5) -1)*exec_uptime+1;
armor_final := solve((armor_before + 10557.5)/(armor_after_new+10557.5) = dmgincrease, armor_after_new);
armor_before := 7700 - 5*520 - 610 - 800;
armor_factor := 1 - (armor_final/(10557.5+armor_final));

the final equation is:
21115.*(20023.+2.*armor_before)/(4.*armor_before^2+81100.*armor_before+410370025.)
Example

armor_before = 7700 - 5*520 - 610 - 800 = 3690
armor_factor = .7572560188
armor_final = 3384.284202
So basically with a fully debuffed bossmob of 7700 armor executioner with 35% uptime is worth a static ~306 ArmorPenetration

The break even with mongoose depends on gear and additional armorPen and MobArmor but should be around 330 ArmorPen

Basically, with an Uptime of 35% it will never properly reach Mongoose with the current gear, an uptime of 40% is required to be beat Mongoose in all areas.
It will beat Mongoose with maximized Sunwell gear on low armor (6200 base armor) mobs though. No luck on high armor boss mobs though. Get's close.

Edit: simplified Equation for effective ArmorPen:

eff_armor_pen := exec_armorpen*exec_uptime*(2.*armor_before+21115.)/(21115.+2.*exec_armorpen*exec_uptime+2.*armor_before-2.*exec_armorpen)

http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

 

Yo!

+ Changed default Boss dodge to 6.5% up from 5.6%
+ Added correct models for potions instead of static values
+ Enabled Band of Eternal Champion selection (1 ppm, 60s hidden cooldown)
+ Added Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve Scryer (15% chance for +100 expertise rating for 10 s, 45 s hidden cooldown)
+ Added Shattered Sun Pendant of Might Scryer (15% chance for 350 damage, uses melee combat table, melee& crit damage multipliers, 45 s hidden cooldown, can not proc on-hit abilities, reports as white damage in the sim)
+ Added Shattered Sun Pendant of Might Aldor (15% chance for +200 ap for 10 s, 45 s hidden cooldown)

 

• Disquette

Thank you Yo!.

 

Totalitar

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but are you saying that if I have over 330 ArP executioner is better then Mongoose?

I have 679 armor penetration and the sim still shows 2xmongoose as about 4dps better.

 

Ardonomus

Just picked up a [Mounting Vengeance], and I ran the sim a few times trying to figure out which weapon would be the superior choice for the main hand in combination with this new toy. What I found out was that it doesn't really matter which weapon I use, I tried [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality], [Syphon of the Nathrezim] and [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver].

Even on different armor bosses, these weapons in combination with the MV would perform approximately the same. Are my values screwed or is this what others are experiencing as well?

 

cloakedling

I am slightly confused by the mechanics of windfury and was hoping that someone could inform me. Why is it that the damage from dual-windfury greatly exceeds that of the sum of using windfury on just one weapon (ie windfury on just mainhand might produce wf dps of 100, just on offhand wf = 60dps, but windfury on both weapons would produce wf damage of 200dps)? At first I thought it was just a by-product of increased flurry and ua uptime, but similar results occur even when disabling those talents on Yo's simulator. Any insights into the functioning of windfury would be greatly appreciated.