Sebudai

I think that's correct, but I would probably stick a +5 Strength/+5 Crit gem in the Skyshatter Grips. Also don't forget Fists of Mukoa because they're basically as good as Grips of Damnation.

Haste Rating is just really good.

 

Igniter

Then the Bloodboil ring is the top ring at the moment (at least until we find out the value of -ac). Then again, the exalted ring from hyjal has me really interested

 

Xoya

Out of curiosity, is MetaSocket = 24 still the correct valuation considering we have Relentless Earthstorm Diamond now?

 

Nemaa

I've been very lucky lately and could stack 16.36% passive haste (Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes, Fists of Mukoa, Valestalker Girdle and 2x Band of Devastation) and it's really good. I can't really say if my dps is better with haste or with other stats like ap and crit. I'm willing to do some tests tomorrow, but I don't know how. I'm not really good in testing so if you can give me some advices I'd really like to contribute and help to find out the value of haste and if it's really bad for us in 1.3-1.5 weapon speed range.

 

Sebudai

I prefer Band of Devastation to the Bloodboil ring. To me the 16 stamina easily offsets the minor difference in dps stats. 16 stamina is a lot to gain, especially from the ring slot. As far as just dealing damage though, I think the heirarchy would be Stormrage Signet Ring followed by Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring followed by Band of Devastation.

 

Malan

Anyone know if it would be a relatively painless alteration to Pawn to have it place the AEP for each stat directly by that stat (similar to what RatingBuster does) in a tooltip, instead of just summing it up at the bottom?

Also I see that the author of Pawn posted this on July 10th:

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

◊ Rob

Simply put, no. Meta sockets should be worth more than 24 AP. The value of 3% increased critical damage scales with critical strike rating. If we assume 25% crit, that makes it a 0.75% increase in damage dealt; I'm on my way out the door right now, so someone else can take Tornhoof's numbers and convert that to AP.

My thoughts are along these lines. I'd like a range of potential damage numbers which -300 armor gives over different boss encounters, assuming standard debuffs (CoR, Sunder, Faerie Fire -- obviously, Expose Weakness, Imp Faerie Fire, or proc effects might further change these numbers). If we had an idea of how much armor certain NPCs had and we knew that NPC armor works the same way as player armor, we could probably compute this.

 

Magna_FA

I included only mail items because those were the items I was personally looking at and wanted to evaluate against. By wearing a ton of leather, I lose a bit of mitigation, but more importantly, I lose my mana pool. A couple leather is fine, but I like to keep my mana pool large enough that I don't top out when I burn SR, which has been increasingly hard to do as my gear gets better (more attack power. I'm over 1500 now). I'm not adverse to using leather, I just prefer not to. Never mind trying to wrangle them from the rogues and feral druid...heh.

I didn't include the haste items because of 2 reasons, first that they require leather working, and I'm not willing to drop my other crafting to get a couple points more dps (unfortunately, I can't seem to level an alt to save my life. Playing a shaman is too damn fun!) and also because when I was using .9 as a value for haste, they weren't coming up on top. I've seen a lot of different values for haste here in this thread so I don't know which one to go by. I also haven't had a chance to run my own tests to find my own number for my own gear or prospective gear. So by using .9, I didn't see them as better. But I could be wrong with this value. So what's the word on haste value? Of course, this should be a value for a gear level you would have when you have access to them, at a BT/Hyjal level of gear.

Oh, and as for the blue slot. I didn't include it, but there's a 5str/4agi red/blue gem from Steam Vaults, which I already have in my inventory waiting for something to put it in. I have one in my current gear too. Just too bad it's unique/equip. So having 1 slot isn't that bad, more than 1 might be a problem. However, you need 2 blues to make the meta work too though (which I forgot to check for in my calculations.)

I'll go over the spreadsheet again for errors and look at other gear too. I did that after I'd been up all night, but couldn't sleep because I wanted to know. But before I do, what value should I use for haste? Is .9 not right? I've seen 1.2 as well but I'm not sure where that came from. I'm sure as your gear gets better, the value should be higher as well.

 

Nemaa

I did two tests on Blasted Lands' Servants to find out what is better, Syphon/Rising Tide or Rising Tide/Syphon. I did not use any haste items or trinkets, nor stormstrike. Both test lasted 30 minutes, I had WF and mongoose on both weapons and 4 pieces of T5 (+5% speed for flurry). I used some of the Invigorated procs to heal myself, although it resets swing timer, but it's still better than healing myself while I can't attack. My stats were:
1484 AP
191 Hit Rating
26.75% Crit chance

Here are the WWS reports:
Rising Tide MH / Syphon of the Nathrezim OH 800 dps
Syphon of the Nathrezim MH / Rising Tide OH 771 dps

I found out also that the Syphon proc can not refresh itself but it does not have an internal cooldown, because I saw procs right after it's effect ended. I hope this helps, though I didn't use shocks nor stormstrikes and it was not a raid environment (I was not fully buffed up, no hits from behind, etc...)

 

Sebudai

In theory using Stormstrike with the Syphon MH should give you more dps than with the Rising Tide MH, so your numbers might be a little closer if you added that in.

 

Xaro

Well actually, No. The difference is so little from stormstrike, that if you had 1,400 AP.

I apologize for the quick, and dirty math ahead of time.

With the 1,400 AP
Rising Tide deals on average, ~520 damage in the MH. ~260 OH.
Syphon would deal ~560, and ~280 OH.

With Rising Tide in the MH and Syphon in the OH.
The average Stormstrike hit is 800 damage. Which is 80 DPS from the SS 10s CD.
With Syphon MH and Rising Tide OH, it's 82 DPS.

A 2 DPS difference.

Looking at Nemaa's test. That extra DPS lead from Stormstrike still wouldn't catch the difference of DPS from his Auto-Attack and Windfury test.

The amount of AP required just catch the difference is so great. I doubt it'll fit in your character paper doll sheet in-game.

EDIT: Tidy.

 

Nemaa

I think Sebudai was referring to the WFCD addon. If you wait with stormstrike till the windfury cooldown's end you have more chance to proc it with tha main hand what means more damage. Or if you don't wait just spam it every 10 seconds you still have more chance for a main hand windfury proc.

 

Shikka

I must say it's a incredible post. and i really enjoy reading it.

But now i have a problem of my own:
I Was wondering about the 2,7speed 2,8speed 2,6speed mh/oh stuff.

I have 2 Merciless Gladiator Maces: 2,6speec. 97,5dps.
Beside those i have 1: Syphon of the Nathrezim: 2,8speed 100,2dps.

I'm not sure to put the 2,8speed in MH or in OH, or not use it at all.

Beside that when/If i get a #2 Syphon of the Nathrezim, Should i then use 2 of those. or 1 glad, 1 Syphon.....

With Heroism/Flurry/Haste Rating from my items. (Without mongoose). And 2,8speed MH/2,6speed oh my speed look like this:

now the OH speed is Faster than the MH, BUT! It's 1,49! So it's faster than the 3sec CD, Giving the MH 1 Hit where it can proc WF, where the OH Won't be able to.

Ofc if the MH Proc's the WF, The OH attack might not come exactly 1,49sec after. but maybe 0,10sec after and will then have the chance of proccing WF. ;-S

 

Malan

3 swings at 1.60 speed takes 4.8 seconds. 3 swings at 1.49 speed takes 4.47 seconds. You'll stand a chance at the OH eating the first available windfury cooldown.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Shikka

#2 swing with MH will be after 3,2sec. That will be the first available WF Swing.
#2 Attack with OH with be after 2,98sec aka cant proc WF.
1 3 5 7 9 10 12 14
MH: 1,6;3,2;4,8;6,4;8,0;9,6;11,2;12,8;14,4;16
OH: 1,49;2,98;4,47;5,96;7,45;8,94;10,43;11,92:13,4
2 4 6 8 9 11 12 15
SO WF Chances: MH, OH, MH, OH, MH, OH, MH, OH
So first chance is MH and then they will change MH, OH. Untill after 38attacks. (30sec) where it will be: MH, OH, OH, MH. Because of the speed diff. But the chance of proccing WF b4 that is quit high -.-

 

Iol

Thing is Shikka, WF won't allways proc when it's cooldown's ready, and then, your Main hand and off hand are out of sync.

As far as i know, if your 2 weapons are of the same speed, thus swinging at the same time, the WF check happens on the main hand first, if it fails, it checks the Off hand. Someone prove me wrong if i am in saying this. But to me, that alone screams don't let your weapons be out of sync.

 

benvegas

I've read all 500000 pages of this thread over the last few days, thanks very much to everyone for all of their hard work.

My question is a simple question. Using the current front page pawn string where Agility = 2, and Hit Rating = 1.4, this brings me to a question regarding the boot enchants Surefooted or Cat's Swiftness.

Cat's Swiftness is 6 agility + 8% movement speed increase.
Surefooted is 10 hit rating + 5% snare/root resist.

6 agility = 12 points
10 hit rating = 14 points

This guide states clearly to use Cat's Swiftness. Of course the 8% movement and 5% snare/root resist have their advantages, I cant lean towards one of those one way or another, they both seem equally as useful.

So my question, is "Why Cat's Swiftness?"

Thanks!

 

Xaro

Surefooted was confused with Boar's Speed in your enchant descriptions.

Aside from that, in most PvE encounters today you'll find yourself running from one mob to another. And of course doing very little to no DPS during this traveling.

So if you can minimize travel time, you will minimize DPS down time.

In my opinion, it is entirely up to you which enchant you use. As they are both great enchants.

 

Malan

The speed enchant is hands down, no questions asked, best enchant to have for PvE. The 5% snare/root enchant is for PvP purposes, and the hit rating really isn't necessary. There's so much hit rating available on raiding gear as to be silly for Enhance purposes.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

SentinelBorg

30 mins is too short. I made similar tests and had over 20 DPS difference between the DPS value after 30 mins and the one after 60 mins. Imho, even 60 mins is not enough.

 

benvegas

Fixed the description, thanks.

Currently, the guild I am in is clear in SSC except Vashj, and Solarian/K are still alive in TK. The fights in Hyjal/BT, are those more running towards things to DPS or stand-still fights? I would think then that if they are all running around, then yes, the boar's speed would work best.

Thanks for the input.

-Ben

 

benvegas

Just noticed the new Pawn was out with Haste and armor penetration support. Anyone have a new pawn import string or know the values to use? It was just released around an hour ago.

World of Warcraft UI / Mods - The Unofficial World of Warcraft Mods site

 

Malan

The very first post has a pawn string ready to go for your use, you'll just need to modify it with the haste rating values.

I notice it also added values for armor penetration effects.


Edit - Good news from the Benefactor Bar, there's a very high probability that we're going to be forming an EJ theorycraft wiki page where we'll be making all this info available for community edit, with some author ownership to prevent shenanigans.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Aett

There is a very, very large amount of running around in Hyjal. On Kael there is a decent amount of running. Even fights that you have done, like Hydros, Lurker, Karathress, Tidewalker, and Alar all have significant movement components to them. Solarian and Supremus do as well.

 

Malan

Here's a more updated version of the math that I linked on the first post from pre-TBC. I just took the equations used and substituted in values appropriate for level 70.

Dexterity Enchant = 12 Agi = 12 x 1.8 = 21.6 AEP = ~1.6 DPS (if 12.73 AP = 1 DPS because of Weapon Mastery)
Length of fight = 6min = 360 seconds
Shaman DPS = 800 (fairly achievable value)

Contribution of Dexterity enchant to damage in a 360 sec fight
360sec * 1.6dps = 576
The run speed enchant would need to make up 576 damage by allowing you to reach your target faster.

576 = 800*[x-x/1.08]
576/800 = x - x/1.08
576/800 = x(1-1/1.08)
Simplifies to x = 9.72

So at level 70, for a 6min fight where your average DPS is 800, a run speed enchant beats out an agility enchant if the fight forces you to move between targets for more than 9.7 seconds. Note that the math above doesn't even account for the 6 Agility on the Cat Swiftness enchant, which would further this as such:

If the DPS contribution of the Dexterity enchant is 576 damage over 360 seconds, than the Agility from the Cat Swiftness enchant (0.8 DPS) would be worth 288 damage in the same fight. Therefore you really only need to beat out 576 - 288 = 288 damage over the fight.
This would lead to the equations above simplifying to x = 4.85, so you really only need to have less than 5 seconds of movement on a 6 minute fight for the Cat Swiftness enchant to be come superior to the Dexterity enchant.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06