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Old 12/15/07, 3:39 PM   #5656
Ilmater
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Zul'Jin
Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
0/42/19 was a pre-2.3 build that excluded 3 points in Mental Quickness, and had either 3/5 Totemic Mastery + 5/5 Healing focus, vice versa, or some other variants

With the change to Mental Quickness, this build isn't as viable for pure raid dps/support anymore
So 0/45/16 is the best now then, right?

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Old 12/15/07, 4:30 PM   #5657
Morelis
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Lightbringer
I see items like [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] popping up in many ideal gear caculations, what I'm wondering though if the values people are using for expertise are taking into account the incremental nature of expertise rating? Or has that problem been fixed?

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Old 12/15/07, 5:25 PM   #5658
david0925
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
I see items like [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] popping up in many ideal gear caculations, what I'm wondering though if the values people are using for expertise are taking into account the incremental nature of expertise rating? Or has that problem been fixed?
I actually value expertise quite high. Since it affects both yellow attacks and white attacks. +Hit affects white attacks, Expertise affects both white attacks and yellow attacks. White attack accounts for about 50% of damage, WF and SS about 30% and 10%, and Shocks about 10%. Since Expertise affects Tying Windfury to Autoswings and Yellow attacks, that puts white attacks + white triggered WF at 74% and SS+SS triggered WF at 16%. Expertise will effect 90% of combat table, while hit contributes to anywhere from 50% to 74% of combat table. (50% because it at LEAST affects all white attacks, 74% because white still needs to hit to have a chance to proc windfury) The value is between these two because hit by itself does not affect Windfury's miss rate, but does increase Windfury's proc rate to an extend.

So using my personal value of hit @ 1.84 AEP accordingly to Yo! Simulatr (2518AP, 27.16% crit, 17.84 hit)
My expertise value weigh anywhere from 1.84/0.5 x .9 = 3.3 (high end) to 1.84/.74 x .9 = 2.23.

Assuming my math method is correct, point for point expertise is actually better than strength, even after kings. I haven't done math critical analysis in a while though, so it is likely (and welcomed) for one of the math experts to come out and correct me.

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Old 12/15/07, 5:39 PM   #5659
Morelis
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
I actually value expertise quite high. Since it affects both yellow attacks and white attacks. +Hit affects white attacks, Expertise affects both white attacks and yellow attacks. White attack accounts for about 50% of damage, WF and SS about 30% and 10%, and Shocks about 10%. Since Expertise affects Tying Windfury to Autoswings and Yellow attacks, that puts white attacks + white triggered WF at 74% and SS+SS triggered WF at 16%. Expertise will effect 90% of combat table, while hit contributes to anywhere from 50% to 74% of combat table. (50% because it at LEAST affects all white attacks, 74% because white still needs to hit to have a chance to proc windfury) The value is between these two because hit by itself does not affect Windfury's miss rate, but does increase Windfury's proc rate to an extend.

So using my personal value of hit @ 1.84 AEP accordingly to Yo! Simulatr (2518AP, 27.16% crit, 17.84 hit)
My expertise value weigh anywhere from 1.84/0.5 x .9 = 3.3 (high end) to 1.84/.74 x .9 = 2.23.

Assuming my math method is correct, point for point expertise is actually better than strength, even after kings. I haven't done math critical analysis in a while though, so it is likely (and welcomed) for one of the math experts to come out and correct me.
Right, it's a great stat, but unless they've changed it rating is only of use if it increases your "expertise" by a whole number. So for the shoulders mentioned above the first 8 rating give you 2 expertise, the other 2 rating are useless. I'm just wondering if that has been changed, or if the various calculations(maxdps, lootrank, etc.) take that into account?

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Old 12/15/07, 7:16 PM   #5660
Rob
Paid $25 To Raid
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Burning Blade
Originally Posted by Morelis View Post
Right, it's a great stat, but unless they've changed it rating is only of use if it increases your "expertise" by a whole number. So for the shoulders mentioned above the first 8 rating give you 2 expertise, the other 2 rating are useless. I'm just wondering if that has been changed, or if the various calculations(maxdps, lootrank, etc.) take that into account?
Loot Rank et al. can't really take that into account in the scores they assign to individual items, because you might have expertise rating on another item that would make the other "left-over" rating useful. In your example, if I had 2 items that each gave 10 expertise rating, I would actually end up with 5 Expertise. The best way to handle this at this time, IMO, is to under-value expertise rating a little bit, or to calculate values by hand/Excel. (I personally find that [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] and [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] are in a virtual dead heat for the best item, and since I already have the former I'm not going to get the latter until no hunters want them.)

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Old 12/16/07, 12:14 AM   #5661
Aeolian
No.
 
Aeolian's Avatar
 
Iyosin
Troll Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Ilmater View Post
So 0/45/16 is the best now then, right?
Yes, 0 / 45 /16 is the cookie cutter spec.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I use a variant of it that removes the 2 points in Improved Reincarnation, and puts the two points into Concussion in the Elemental tree. 2 / 45 / 14
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Not for everyone, I'm one of those people blessed with a main tank and off tanks that have consistently high threat per second so I won't ever pull as long as I have salvation.

I first saw the spec on Jaffnar, don't know where he got it, but it has been nice so far, not a huge increase in shock damage, but it's noticeable sometimes.

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Old 12/16/07, 11:21 AM   #5662
Disquette
doop doop de doooo
 
Disquette's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Sargeras
Re: expertise, I'm currently using

brooch of deftness: 21
vashj belt: 25
shoulderpads of the stranger: 10

to make exactly 56 expertise rating, which is nicely divisible by four.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...6766?page=3#41
Let me map a priority list out for you so that you can refer to it in the future:
1. Money 2. Money 3. PvE 4. Mages 5. Companion pets 6. PvP

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Old 12/16/07, 12:03 PM   #5663
Constantine
Glass Joe
 
Orc Shaman
 
Spinebreaker (EU)
You will say the math is wrong. Because I actually use some global cooldowns like SS, racials, summoning totems, shamanistic rage, water shield etc. And ofc sometimes I hold back shocks to prevent overaggroing. I realize that. Thank you. But still.

My build is 15/46/0 with Concussion and Revebration. During raids (KZ, no post-Kara experience with this shaman) my shocks hit for 1200-1700. Overall DPS is 700-800. So eventual DPS produced by shocks - damage divided by 5 (divided by... let's say 8) - varies as 240-340 (150-212.5). Which is way more than 10%.

(And ofc. There are situations when I use weapons and hold back shocks. But sometimes I can't apply weapons for short periods while actually striking with shocks. Like chasing/moving to trash/adds.)

Correct me/explain me this please.

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Old 12/16/07, 12:24 PM   #5664
david0925
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
You will say the math is wrong. Because I actually use some global cooldowns like SS, racials, summoning totems, shamanistic rage, water shield etc. And ofc sometimes I hold back shocks to prevent overaggroing. I realize that. Thank you. But still.

My build is 15/46/0 with Concussion and Revebration. During raids (KZ, no post-Kara experience with this shaman) my shocks hit for 1200-1700. Overall DPS is 700-800. So eventual DPS produced by shocks - damage divided by 5 (divided by... let's say 8) - varies as 240-340 (150-212.5). Which is way more than 10%.

(And ofc. There are situations when I use weapons and hold back shocks. But sometimes I can't apply weapons for short periods while actually striking with shocks. Like chasing/moving to trash/adds.)

Correct me/explain me this please.
The Math i'm doing is assuming a non-Elemental Devastation build. It is rather easy to modify it to your needs.

Assuming that your Shock damage does X, then for the math above, for every 90%, or 0.9, replace it with your value, which will be (1-X), or 100-X %

This means that expertise will be weighed different for you, with lower than expected value.

Then, look at your windfury proc % in relation to dmg, and divide it proportionally among white attacks and Stormstrike (say typically 4-5 : 1 for a enh/resto). This isn't completely accurate since Stormstrike would be hit capped while White is not. Which means assuming there are equal swings, SS will proc a bit more windfury. However, this is just to help you get a ballpark's view at how much expertise weights. When I do have time in the future, I'll look at this in a furthermore quantative method.

Last edited by david0925 : 12/16/07 at 12:29 PM.

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Old 12/16/07, 3:03 PM   #5665
Traker
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Vek'nilash
Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
Re: expertise, I'm currently using

brooch of deftness: 21
vashj belt: 25
shoulderpads of the stranger: 10

to make exactly 56 expertise rating, which is nicely divisible by four.
Am I doing this wrong?

I am trying to compare Belt of 100 deaths to the other high level belts using my stat weights.
(str=2.2, ap=1, hit=1.8, crit=2.0, ignore armor=.3,agility=1.9,haste=1.6)
Also of note I am assuming 50% white damage, 40% yellow damage(WF+SS).

Using the formula from the first post I am getting the following:

The belt has 25 expertise so;
25/3.95=6.WHATEVER. 6*3.95* (40*1.43+ 50)/50*1.8=91.4 is the value of the expertise on belt of 100 deaths.
so the total belt is 187.1(using my stat weights)+91.4=278.5 value from the expertise belt.

compared to say... Don Alejandro's Money Belt at 233.7 value obviously using my stat weights.

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Old 12/16/07, 4:49 PM   #5666
david0925
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
Edit: L2read

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Old 12/16/07, 6:36 PM   #5667
Aeolian
No.
 
Aeolian's Avatar
 
Iyosin
Troll Druid
 
No WoW Account
I want to apologize in advance for the following question, I am almost positive the answer is here somewhere but as of yet I haven't been able to find it. But its a fairly simple question, hopefully someone knows.

Do Tsunami Talisman and Madness of the Betrayer share a Internal Cool Down with each other?

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Old 12/16/07, 7:32 PM   #5668
Mox
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
I want to apologize in advance for the following question, I am almost positive the answer is here somewhere but as of yet I haven't been able to find it. But its a fairly simple question, hopefully someone knows.

Do Tsunami Talisman and Madness of the Betrayer share a Internal Cool Down with each other?
No.

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Old 12/16/07, 7:42 PM   #5669
Aeolian
No.
 
Aeolian's Avatar
 
Iyosin
Troll Druid
 
No WoW Account
Heh, thanks for the reply. Found an answer to it in guild just before coming back here.

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Old 12/17/07, 2:44 AM   #5670
Disquette
doop doop de doooo
 
Disquette's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by Traker View Post
Am I doing this wrong?

I am trying to compare Belt of 100 deaths to the other high level belts using my stat weights.
(str=2.2, ap=1, hit=1.8, crit=2.0, ignore armor=.3,agility=1.9,haste=1.6)
Also of note I am assuming 50% white damage, 40% yellow damage(WF+SS).

Using the formula from the first post I am getting the following:

The belt has 25 expertise so;
25/3.95=6.WHATEVER. 6*3.95* (40*1.43+ 50)/50*1.8=91.4 is the value of the expertise on belt of 100 deaths.
so the total belt is 187.1(using my stat weights)+91.4=278.5 value from the expertise belt.

compared to say... Don Alejandro's Money Belt at 233.7 value obviously using my stat weights.
Looks about right to me.

The way I'd do this is to find how much expertise you're wasting, subtract it out, and do the rest of the calculations based on that. Let's say you have 0 other expertise rating. That means you should only use 24 of the 25 ER on the belt for dps calc purposes. ER, as a rule of thumb, will be valued at about 2 times your hit rating.

So, I'd say that the ER on the belt would be worth 1.8 x 2 x 24 = 86.4

I'm assuming you did the rest of your math correctly, as it jives with my memory that the Vashj belt is pretty easily the best in the game for most people's set ups.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...6766?page=3#41
Let me map a priority list out for you so that you can refer to it in the future:
1. Money 2. Money 3. PvE 4. Mages 5. Companion pets 6. PvP

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