Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 39

Malan · 07/31/07, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by Ketrew

I'm just starting to use my Shaman for an arena team and some of my team mates are asking me to use a two handed weapon. I'd love some feedback on Two handers Vs. Duel Wield when its comes to pvp.

Tenion
Shaman - Silver Hand

There's an entire thread devoted to this subject already over in the pvp forum.

Ketrew · 07/31/07, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

There's an entire thread devoted to this subject already over in the pvp forum.

Thanks Malan, I'll move the question there.

Ardonomus · 07/31/07, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by panny

Only thing that really catches my eyes is that your pants are unenchanted (an easy 40 AP/10 crit rating). Are you keeping behind the target, making sure you have maximum contact time, using cooldowns appropriately (damage windows), and making sure you have the right buffs (Battle Shout, SoE, Salv, etc) maintained throughout the fight?

On a different note, after some recent upgrades (Dragonspine/Merciless Offhand), I'm having some real issues with threat, especially on trash. Part of it can be explained with half the raid using outdated threat meter mods, but not all. How do you deal with the fact that you can get this kind of uncontrollable burst at almost any time:

11:08'52.140	Magtheridon's Blast Nova hits Hortez for 2407 Fire damage
156	Hortez's Melee crits Magtheridon for 2350
468	Hortez's Earth Shock hits Magtheridon for 1655 Nature damage
890	Hortez's Improved Leader of the Pack heals Hortez for 462
11:08'53.171	Hortez gains 12 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
250	Hortez gains Flurry
281	Hortez's Windfury Attack crits Magtheridon for 3593
281	Hortez's Windfury Attack crits Magtheridon for 4171
546	Hortez's Melee hits Magtheridon for 501 (glancing)
11:08'54.406	Hortez's Melee crits Magtheridon for 2196

I believe it's been awhile since the main tanks have had a decent upgrade, but does tank threat scale much anyway? I try to keep a larger threat buffer between me and the tanks, but on trash, this isn't really feasible unless I want to start attacking when mobs are on 30% health. I am getting Salv (except on that Mag attempt because I assumed I wouldn't need it).

How do you better geared Shaman deal with threat?

Jesus christ! How do you get that kind of numbers with your gear (looking at the unbuffed values in your armory)? I understand it could be a rare spike, but still, I've never seen myself crit for more then 2.5k with WF, and that's with 2.8-3.2k AP raid buffed\procced.

Our last Magtheridon where I was not a clicker: WWS
(Yes, I died. I bounced straight into a cleave, but I ankhed just after and continued the fight till the end half buffed)

I have roughly the same stats as yours (my current armory profile is of my PVP stuff, so disregard that), yet I've never seen crits as high as 3000+. What am I missing?

I have the usual raid buffs and self buffs, so I'm really surprised that you manage to put out these numbers, and I'd really love to know how you do it!

Lujaar · 07/31/07, 6:01 PM

Magtheridon takes double damage when banished. Note the Blast Nova at the top of the log.

aiaeu · 07/31/07, 7:08 PM

While this question has been asked in this thread it does not seem to have been answered. What value of AEP is the Crystalforged Trinket? Wowhead says that the cooldown is 1 minute although I cannot confirm myself at this point. Crystalforged Trinket - Items - World of Warcraft

I attempted math myself but have failed :<

I found some information on the other enhancement thread..

Bloodlust Brooch - Bloodlust Brooch - Items - World of Warcraft
278*(20/120) = 46.3 + 72 passive = 118.3 ap

Crystalforged Trinket - Crystalforged Trinket - Items - World of Warcraft
216*(10/60) = 36 + xxx depending on your weapons. Doing very quick math it would add at least another 5dps. 60 sec, 2.7 speed weapon, so 22 attacks per minute x 7 dam = 155 dam/60 sec = 2.59dps (if 1dps=14ap) or roughly 36ap. Using 2 weapons close to the same speed = 70ap. So approximately 106ap total.

Are these numbers correct?

Xaeius · 07/31/07, 8:04 PM

I've read through all the information and I wanted to post about Romelo's Poison Vial. I'm not really the best person in the english department but I've been using the Vial for a few months now and most of the information is saved on my guild's WWS. So if someone wants to go through and try to collect the information about the vial. We have time frames, how much damage it's doing, etc if someone wants to do the math.

My character is Xaeius if you wanna check it out, so i'll go back to the shadows now and continue reading posts that are posted.

Fair warning, i'm forced to go between resto and enhancement. so i don't know what times i was resto or enhancement but it should easily tell. Also, some adviced about my gear would be pretty cool. I'm interested in obtaining better ideas of what to obtained for damage + survival.

Thanks guys

Wow Web Stats

Malan · 07/31/07, 8:10 PM

The vial is pretty much a known factor - it adds somewhere between 1.5-2% of your total damage, but that's dependent on the length of the fight as well. Its hard to say if we could assign a value to it.

Re: Crystalforged Trinket - there's a post somewhere in this thread or the itemization one that Nite_Moogle made I think, that did the math on the T4 4pc bonus, it would probably work in a similar sense to the +7 weapon damage. As I recall though the stormstrike benefit only amounted to around 1-2 DPS.

Krushh · 07/31/07, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

The vial is pretty much a known factor - it adds somewhere between 1.5-2% of your total damage, but that's dependent on the length of the fight as well. Its hard to say if we could assign a value to it.

Here's my stab at the vial:

Lets say the enh shaman does 700 dps, then 1.5 to 2% of that is 10.5 to 14 DPS.
It takes 14 attack power to equal one DPS. It should equal to 147 to 196 equivalent AP.

Hit rating is being valued at 1.4 times attack power, so that is simply 49 attack power equivalent.

When combined, the vail should be as good as 196 to 245 AP.

edit: I havn't modeled how it would change overall dps by stealing SS procs. That is a project for later time.

Malan · 07/31/07, 10:23 PM

I'm not sure that's accurate. Your equation above sets the proc up as variable dependent on your DPS, but that's not the case. It always does the same range of damage when it procs. As you become better geared the proc will become less of your total damage %, not more.

Ardonomus · 08/01/07, 3:41 AM

Originally Posted by Lujaar

Magtheridon takes double damage when banished. Note the Blast Nova at the top of the log.

Aha, right. Thanks for pointing that out.

Teirz · 08/01/07, 5:47 AM

Just wondering if anyone concerns with the weapon skills for shaman?

For slow weapon, it would normally be axe/mace/fist. If weapon skill gave a great boost on taking away the parried and dodge, how would its rating be compare to crit/ap etc?

Sintor · 08/01/07, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Teirz

just wondering if anyone concerns with the weapon skills for shaman?

for slow weapon, it would normally be axe/mace/fist. If weapon skill gave a great boost on taking away the parried and dodge, how would its rating be compare to crit/ap etc?

Without even doing the math on it, I can tell you that there aren't really any items worth picking up that have skill rating on them, outside of one pair of gloves in Kara. Truthfully, the only time I would see it coming into play would be if you were deciding what smithing spec. weapon you wanted as an Orc Shaman.

Tornhoof · 08/01/07, 1:41 PM

I think I'm fairly close to a working flurry closed form expression.

There are three attacks which can proc flurry, white crits, stormstrike crits and wf crits, the latter two don't consume charges.

So if we assume an already flurried attack, we modifiy the 3 swings to add wf and ss

The attack speed is basically

attackspeed = (ws1 + ws2) / (4 * 1.3f * (1 + haste / 100));

for two 2.6s weapons and 0 haste this is obviously 1.0s (e.g. we swing each second)

Now we do two SS attacks each 10s, so during our flurry time of 3 swings, we basically have:

ssinthree = 3 * attackspeed / 5;

wfprocprob = 0.36f

Our percentage of time, in which we can actually proc wf is defined as:
The expected time to proc WF (which is attackspeed/0.2f basically) divided by the expected time + cooldown:
wftime = (attackspeed / (wfprocprob / 2f)) / ((attackspeed / (wfprocprob / 2f)) + 3);

This basically means, that faster weapons actually increase the percentage of time, in which we can't proc windfury, basically if we expect a wf proc every 3s and have a 3s cooldown after each wf proc, the percentage is 50% (should be fine so far)

Now we add to our 3 flurry swings, the probability not to have no wf proc at all (1-(1-0.4)^(wftime*3) and our percentage of stormstrike swings in 3 normal swings.

flurryprob = (float)Math.Min(1 - Math.Pow(noncrit, 3f + 1 - Math.Pow(1 -wfprocprob, wftime * 3) + ssinthree), 1.0);

So for two 2.6s weapons, no haste = 1.0s attackspeed and a 20% wf proc rate (simplified in this example), we expect a wf proc every 5s, so the actual time we spent in "trying to get wf" is 62.5%, our ss percentage of swings is 0.6, together with 30% crit this results in:

1-(1-0.3)^(3+1-(1-wfprocprob)^(0.625*3)+0.6) = 0.77%, e.g. our flurry probability is 77%

Technically this is still not 100% correct, since stormstrike is actually more a spike (discrete) value, than a continous value. But it should do fine for now.

Some real life values I gathered:
Two 2.6s weapons, 28% crit I had on the ptr an uptime of 73%, the algo calculates (with reduced 0.36f wfprocprob) of 74.7%. Most of the difference is probably that I didn't spam Stormstrike properly

It is still not 100% perfect, but is fairly correct for usage in closed form expressions.

Shikka · 08/01/07, 3:19 PM

have 2 merciless glad and 2 syphon.

Any1 tested or have an idea whether is best to use MH/OH?

2x Syphon? 2,8speed mh/oh.

or 2,6 glad MH and 2,8 OH? In case this should do more dps?.

(Gonna test it myselv soon i guees).

But if any1 had an idea or have tested i would like to hear it.

Edit: When people do DPS They usually do it in Blast Land?.

Wondering: Why in Blasted Land? And on What Mobs?.

Seeing that the mobs dies rather fast wont that interfear with the "epxeriment"?

Disquette · 08/01/07, 3:20 PM

very cool Tornhoof, glad to see you've made significant headway on this!

Igniter · 08/01/07, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by Shikka

have 2 merciless glad and 2 syphon.

Any1 tested or have an idea whether is best to use MH/OH?

2x Syphon? 2,8speed mh/oh.

or 2,6 glad MH and 2,8 OH? In case this should do more dps?.

(Gonna test it myselv soon i guees).

But if any1 had an idea or have tested i would like to hear it.

Edit: When people do DPS They usually do it in Blast Land?.

Wondering: Why in Blasted Land? And on What Mobs?.

Seeing that the mobs dies rather fast wont that interfear with the "epxeriment"?

I'd suggest using the Firefox spell checker, first of all. Specific mobs in Blasted Lands don't die unless you destroy an item near them, meaning it's the best place for testing (longevity wise).

Shikka · 08/01/07, 8:30 PM

Found the mob. Weird mob xD

Now im just wondering how do u kill it?

2x Syphon with heroism/Flurry/Duel mongoose up -> 1,51speed mh/oh. Awesome.

Ulthan · 08/02/07, 3:29 AM

Been linked to this thread from the EU forums.
Some damn good info here so far ^^

Since most of you seem to be around SSC-BT Raid level, and a lot of the stats i'm seeing seem quite ambitious for a Kara raider, could you take a look at my Armory (should be in the profile right) And point out where i might be going wrong?

The +6 Hit rating gems are gonna be replaced like... now. Omw to the AH now to pick up some +4 Str, +4 Crit Rating ones to fill the slots.

My main concern is my crit. Right now i have around 23%, but when i can, i plan to drop my 2 trinkets i currently have for the Bloodlust Brooch/Abacus of Violent Odds.
I've seen that the Abacus rated a little low on the AEP values, but it serves as an almost-bloodlust to push your weapon down to near 1.5 when BL is on Cooldown, and when BL isn't on cooldown, popping both at the same time can throw you down to about 1.2 (little quicker factoring in my single mongoose)
Not to mention that when you pop Bloodlust to burn the boss down quicker, such as a Curator Evocation, Bloodlust + Abacus + Bloodlust Brooch + UR + Flurry + SR. That's gotta be some nice regen for if i run dry.

Problem is, dropping both my trinkets would replace the Equip: Crit Rating bonuses with Equip: AP bonuses. Dropping my crit to a measly 20%. Using 4CR/4Str Gems would cancel this out a little, i have 4 gem slots currently, so there's a total gain of about 1% crit.
Any suggestions on how to fix that eventual problem are welcome. Also note that my cloak and boots still need Agility/Cat's Swiftness Enchants, so that should hopefully put my crit up by another 1% or so.
Still, 22% Crit unbuffed is...well, disappointing. I feel i'd need more to have UR constantly up.

Edit: I recently stopped using Romulo's Poison Vial, in favor of Bladefist's Breadth as i rarely noticed RPV proccing at all.

Edit 2: I've noticed that UptimeMeter shows only a 65% Flurry uptime. What sort of crit% should i be working towards to get this closer to 100%?

Stigmata · 08/02/07, 7:03 AM

22% crit unbuffed is fine, when I was in TK I think I only had about 23%.

Admitedly my gear went from blue -> Kara -> SSC -> BT/Hyjal.

Can someone link me the flurry uptime meter? Can't remember which page it was linked on. On that note I would be surprised if the uptime wasn't close to 95% for me.

Malan · 08/02/07, 8:09 AM

I think it was tornhoof's addon, might just search for posts by him.

Ulthan · 08/02/07, 8:13 AM

Uptime Meter | World of Warcraft @ Curse.com

You can change the effect it tracks the uptime of by typing something like

/um effect Unleashed Rage

Glad to know my crit's not as bad as i thought it was. But the 65% flurry uptime concerns me a little nontheless. Current AP is 1148, which i plan to improve with the bloodlust brooch and Abacus. According to the info on the front page the Brooch gives equivalent to +118 AP or so. Should bump me up nicely to about 1300-1350 with the Abacus too

belrain · 08/02/07, 8:32 AM

I'm reading the whole thread (post 255 now :S) and I know that this thread is for high lvl shamans, but I'd like to ask you a pair of questions if you don't mind, ofc. Lots of thanks in advance.

I'm leveling a troll shaman [alt] without too much posibilities of joining raids and my guild is now begining with SSC or even make an arean team.

I'd like to know where to point my gear when I reach 70. I'm leveling blacksmithing and I've not problems to spend money in crafted items like Fel Edged Battleaxe, Runic Hammer or Vengeance Wrap.

What is a good gear for a new lvl 70?

Thank you very much.

EDIT: I've removed inet abreviations.

Disquette · 08/02/07, 8:58 AM

fyi, there's a new simulator out, which has a nice GUI, and nice reporting options, but the dude has so much stuff just plain wrong in there. I'm hoping he asks for help on it (he's european, so i can't talk with him directly on forums), because it could be the nicest sim yet in terms of useability.

But the understanding of some aspects of shaman mechanics is pretty dismal.

Shamulator: DPS Sim for Enhance Shammies

Malan · 08/02/07, 9:31 AM

Gah, why do people insist on programming with .NET. It kills platform portability.

Originally Posted by belrain

What is a good gear for a new lvl 70?

Click the Lootzor link on the first post and set it for the Low raid setting and it'll give you KZ epics and blues from instances.
After you've done that I'd suggest editing your post so that it doesn't have things like "u" "thx" and other internet abbreviations.

belrain · 08/02/07, 9:45 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Gah, why do people insist on programming with .NET. It kills platform portability.

java for the win

Originally Posted by Malan

Click the Lootzor link on the first post and set it for the Low raid setting and it'll give you KZ epics and blues from instances.

I tried to use when I readed the 1st post but I was not too much focused, I'll try again. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Malan

After you've done that I'd suggest editing your post so that it doesn't have things like "u" "thx" and other internet abbreviations.

I'm Sorry, I'll edit the previous when I post this one.