Feorthas

If your warrior wishes to use a crit stone instead of windfury, find another warrior.

If the rogue wants to use a MH poison instead of windfury, and he's not mutilate + mob isn't immune to poisons, there are better rogues you can find.

If you have to explain it in simple terms to them, say it's like sword spec, except that it works on any weapon, doesn't use talent points, and procs 4 times as much; all they have to do is not buff their mainhand weapon. If they continue to be idiots, well, you can't help that; just request that other melee dps, that can not only hit their BS/Hemo/SS/S&D/MS/WW/BT/whatever on cycle but also is willing to keep an unbuffed mainhand, be found and put into your group. Or ask to be grouped with only hunters / ferals and drop GoA for classes that it'll actually help a good deal.

I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.

My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.

 

Pater

I made some changes to my simulator that people might be interested in. You can now input passive haste effects. Also, I've improved (I think) the way flurry is tracked. I still need some testing data about flurry uptime to tune it a little, though, if anyone's willing to help.

Using the new haste feature, I did some very basic testing with my mod. Starting at a normal baseline (2200/25%c/22%h/2x2.6 speed weaps), I added haste in 1% increments to 10%, then 5% increments thereafter to 60%. Pretty interesting results. Basically, my results agree with the Euro forums results. Haste is good until you drop your flurried weapon speed below 1.50, at which point it becomes a nightmare. As soon as I went below 1.50 weapon speed, damage dropped a lot and didn't recover to over-1.50 levels until roughly 1.41. (For these weapons, about 44% haste through about 55% haste.) Aside from the discontinuity at 1.50, the slope is about 0.66%/%; i.e., 1% haste should give you about 0.66% dps boost.

Graph:

As always, my model is imperfect and may have significant flaws. Let me know if you see flaws that call these results into question!


edit: For the inevitable day in the future when this image exceeds its bandwidth:

 

Malan

In that case I retract my earlier statement. The issue I had was that the first 3 posters just all said "well as everyone knows, haste is bad" and proceeded to throw around a lot of MS Paint charts... which doesn't exactly make for a good impression on validity.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Azaranth

Blizzard seems to have modified the cooldown on windfury to scale with normal haste effects, which makes the entire Haste Lowering DPS argument more or less invalid. I've personally seen back to back windfuries, while flurried, when using a 3.7 speed mace.

 

Nite_Moogle

I'm sure more people would take this claim seriously with some timestamped combat log screenshots. I have done a great deal of testing and have not seen this to be the case.

 

◊ Rob

Hmm. 1% haste = 0.66% DPS increase?
10.51 haste rating = 1% haste at level 70 (please correct me if you know this to be false, I'm going off what I've seen in Hunter discussions)
15.924 haste = 1% DPS increase
100 AP ~= 2.82% DPS increase --> 35.46 AP ~= 1% DPS increase (taken from last page of Itemizing thread, post by Tornhoof)
1 haste rating ~= 2.22 AP
So, haste rating is a pretty good use of item budget -- even better than STR with Kings.

 

drastic

I've been Resto or Ele ever since getting my Shaman 70 in Feb, but Im more than ready to go Enhance now. However, I know almost nothing about the current state of Enh Shamans. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread, and I learned a lot from it. Thanks a lot for taking the time to assemble all that info into 1 thread.

Unfortunately, I need some very elementary info/numbers that are not discussed here (and rightly so I guess). I have several basic questions regarding DW vs. 2H, what self-buff procs provide the best benefits in both PvP and PvE, etc. Like most all of you, I want to min/max my toon to death, and I need some basic strats covered

I've tried searching these forums, but I mainly found discussion on a higher level, as I expected on EJ - and it's hard to trust input from most forums (i.e. Blizz pub). Could someone please let me know where I could get some basic data and discussion about these things? I get the feeling me asking these rudimentary questions here would get me flamed bad lol... and I hope posting this doesn't end up the same ;\ thx

 

Illundai

Your question is a bit unspecific, but there is a damn lot of information in the Itemizing Enhancement at 70 thread.

 

Ardonomus

That's very interesting indeed! However, how far can you take that before it becomes a nerf in DPS rather then a buff (referring to Pater's graph). You will never be nerfed when you stack up AP, but 40% haste seems like the cap until you can get as much as 55% (or more) haste, is this correct?

http://www.ardonomus.com/wow/hastelol.JPG
I'm wielding a 2.6 MH weapon at the moment, and with flurry, mongoose and bloodlust I'm down to 1.51 speed on my mainhand, and 1.28 on my OH (2.2 base). I'm just curious, do I want to grab haste-items so I have 1.5 speed without bloodlust, and then once I pop bloodlust will I get that last 15% in Pater's model to actually boost my DPS, or will BL in this case actually nerf me?

And with my current stats, if I get mongoose on a future offhand, won't that nerf my DPS? Since when both mongoose are up, I'll get 1.49 MH speed with BL?

 

Stopokingme

I doubt it'll be gimping you to much, considering the odds of having double mongoose up during the entire duration of Bloodlust are astronomical. From experience, the times I have flurry, Dragon Spine Trophy and double mongoose up (which leads to what you would have with bloodlust) is at most 30 seconds of a 10 minute fight, sometimes more, sometimes less.

The increased crit from mongoose alone pretty much makes up for that I think.

 

Kirion

If this numbers right, we need to talk about meta gems once more

Thundering Skyfire Diamond - 240 haste rating with ~9% uptime. 22.85%*9%*0.66 = 1.36% dps increase. Same or better than Relentless unless you have very high crit rate.

42.

 

drastic

I guess the main thing I wanted to see was data on self-buff proc comparisons... does that exist?

 

Nite_Moogle

Windfury dominates everything in all situations except somewhere around 1000 +dmg, where Flametongue becomes competitive. It's not really any question what you use.

 

drastic

no, my real question was - WF on both MH and OH? (as long as your OH is as slow as MH right?) or is WF MH and Flame OH better?

i know this is a noob question - i'll go away after this

 

Nite_Moogle

Flametongue offhand is not better past 41 dps weapons, or with 1000 +dmg. It's really that bad.

 

drastic

thx a ton for your help first of all.

so to summarize - a MH and OH with the same speed with WF5 on both of them is the best possible dps?

 

Malan

Yes. And you need to start using your shift key before Kaubel catches wind of your posts.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Negative

How much better is the Gladiator's Cleaver than Runic Hammer? I was thinking about farming out the Cleaver but in the time it takes I could easily just do dailies and get the Hammer made. Also, what enchant would you recommend on Runic? Mongoose still?

 

Malan

Runic Hammer
140 - 261 Damage Speed 2.40
(83.5 damage per second)
+16 Stamina
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases attack power by 50.

Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver
177 - 330 Damage Speed 2.60
(97.5 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.

Do you *really* need us to point out how much better the Cleaver is?

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

zepi

A thing to note: While for instance Dragonstrike seems to be an excellent MH weapon, due to WF mechanics listed in OP, it's actually quite bad for Shamans, reason being that it's hard to find a decent OH weapon that wouldn't eat half of the WF procs.

Unless you can get your hands on Rod of the Sun King from Kael'thas or Syphon of the Nathrezim from Supremus, it's probably better to MH something else than Dragonmaw / Dragonstrike or Black Planar Edge / Wicked Edge of the Planes.

 

slant

Pater, these are fantastic numbers, I've been looking for some sort of equivalency for haste for a long time now. Groupthink for some time has been that haste should be deemphasized over other stats due to the WF cooldown; meaning that we should take the planar edge over dragonstrike, etc. It's great to finally see some solid results disproving that theory.

 

Negative

I was more looking for someone comparing them who had used them both before, kind of to see how big of a DPS improvement it was for them. I'll probably make the hammer to tide myself over, at least.

 

◊ Shalas

There's a 14 DPS difference between them, even ignoring the Cleaver's superior stats and speed. It's possibly the biggest of an upgrade from one item in the history of your character.

I'm not sure why you're trying to decide between two level 70 weapons at level 35, though.

 

Shadokin

How big of a deal is this? I'm currently leveling a shaman and after some consideration had planned to go BS/Mining so I could get the Dragonstrike line of hammers made. Will the .1 difference in speed really out weight the dps gain of the haste?

 

slant

I'm not convinced that's actually true. Please correct me if I've missed it, but I haven't seen any math, sims, or tests that showed any reason to have an offhand slower than your mainhand. You just want them both as slow as possible, and while you'll miss out on the extra flurried hit if they aren't the same speed, 2.7 main / 2.6 off is perfectly viable.