Madness of the Betrayer proc if I'm remembering rightly.

edit: nope, just the red skull thing

wow, great changes for enchancement, attack power = spell damage is exactly what was needed. Searing totem and healing stream will actually be useful, and shocks scaling with AP, flametounge might actually be useful aswell. Trainable 2 handers could open the door for some intresting caster/healing 2 handers aswell.

Going for the elemental / enhance build will be much more viable aswell, although i would like a subtlty for all damage in low resto much like druids get.

I hope the rest of the class gets similar treatment (% of your spell damage added to totem of wrath, healing to mana spring)

The new -60% mana to shocks after a melee crit talent seems odd to me..

At present it's not needed for pve (except maybe on kaz'rogal :p), and it's sorta nice for pvp, but still, most of my mana goes to purge spam and totems there.

So what exactly is the point of it? Perhaps I'm being optimistic but could it perhaps be the first step in changing itemization for enhancement shamans? Removing the need for int/mp5 on gear as a precursor to giving us mail gear with fully melee dps oriented stats and no wasted points on int/mp5?

I'm probably being too hopeful though ><

It will most likely be incredibly useful for me, as our Paladins never put up JoW, as I can run OOM very fast if I go full out on shocks. Which is what they might be aiming for here.

The [Ogre Mauler's Badge]. The /use makes you all red as well. Not that its a particulary good trinket but yeah.

Unless my math calculations are all messed up, with the new MQ talent FT with a fast OH weapon can outdamage WF in some cases. Here are the numbers I used for the calculation.

AP= 2000
+600 Spell Damage (Mental Quickness 30% * 2000)

FT on Malcheezeen (1.8 speed) does 72 damage per hit.
WF on Runic Hammer (2.4 speed) does 453 damage per proc

The damage coefficent for FT is 10%. So the +600 spell damage from MQ gives an additional 60 damage per FT hit. The grand total from FT is +132 fire damage (72+60).

It takes 5 autoattacks to get 1 WF proc for 453 damage. The 5 autoattacks with FT is 660 points.

So unless my math is incorrect, FT on a 1.8 speed OH weapon would seem to be a better choice than WF on a 2.4 speed OH weapon. Aside from more damage, it allows removes any chances of the 3 sec WF cooldown kicking in from an OH WF proc. It also allows you to not have to worry anymore about having too much +Haste.

If thats an offhand hit it seems just about right to me.

Why would you put WF on the OH though, FT gets no dmg reduction on the OH whereas an OH with WF will take a 50% dmg reductioin. His post said "FT with a fast OH weapon", which leads me to believe that's what he meant. Regardless of what changes they make to FT, WF is going to continue to be the best source of MH damage. Putting it on the OH and the comparing that to FT on the MH would be a bit silly.

Unless I'm terribly confused, which is likely, it seems he did a test with WF on a Runic Hammer, which was in his OH, and FT on a Malch which he put in his OH. That would explain the low WF #'s, and he was seeing which was better, no?

Well according to the formula that Hedin broke down to calculate windfury damage on the OH, a windfury with the Runic hammer should hit for (((246 + ((2 000 / 14) * 2.4)) / 2) + (((445 + 80) / 14) * 2.4)) * 1.10 * 1.40 = 592.02 non crit.

Surely there must be ahrd 'threshold' of AP. where FT becomes undeniably better than WF (Also remember than FT favors fast weapons once you actually have spelldamage, since the spelldamage coefficient doesn't scale with speed, only the initial base FT damage)

Can anyone try and figure this out? Also, 592 non crit is stil less than 660, (the 660 would be even higher if the dagger was 1.3, rather than 1.8)

Again, why would we even consider FT/WF in a MH/OH fashion? The FT dmg is not reduced by the OH, it is best served for DW by placing FT in the OH. Considering FT on the MH is a bit silly.

As far as your math above, roughly 16 seconds to proc 1 windfury on the OH? Call it an anecdote but I've *never* had to wait that long for a proc.

Edit - I am certainly not trying to downplay the idea that FT could work its way in as a useful weapon buff now, but I think the manner that you're going about this is counter to what we know about windfury DPS. You aren't even considering that putting a dagger in the MH with the runic OH is going to push stormstrike DPS into the negligible level.

Malan,

I have been theorycrafting using FT7 on the OH weapon instead of WF5. No idea where you are getting the idea that I am suggesting putting it on the MH. Using WF5 on the MH is still the no brainer option. With the change to MQ talent, FT7 may now be the better choice for your OH weapon than WF5. That is what I was trying to point out.

The one WF proc per 16 secs is pure math. Take 100 and divide that by your proc rate %. That is how many autoattacks on average it will take to get one WF proc. I consistently have a 15% proc rate with a 2.6 and 2.4 speed weapon combo. 100/15 is 6.66. The Runic Hammer has a 2.4 speed. 6.66 * 2.4 = 15.984. The actual number of seconds for one proc is lower than 15.984 once Flurry is factored in but I didn't factor that in since Flurry benefits FT as well.

EDIT: Further clarification. I currently use Decapitator/Runic Hammer as my weapon combo. I have a Malchezeen collecting dust in my bank. I'll continue using the Decapitator when these talent changes go live. What I am trying to figure out is if the Malchezeen with FT7 will be better than the Runic Hammer with WF5.

Unless you're lazy/selfish it's a considerable pve dps boost. Totem cycling is beyond taxing on mana and dropping shocks to <200 mana will let you sustain shocks for quite some time while keeping up your ~600 mana/10 sec totem faggotry.

Now I know that most of this discussion is soley based around the idea of the shaman in an "end game" type environment and min maxing etc...

What I have a qustion about is my 64 shaman which I recently dusted off to level to70. You guysmention using some 2.6 speed weapons as the sweet spot, DPS wise, for an enhancement shaman. Now I do have a green 2.6 speed axe (Lv62) which dropped for me and a blue 2.7, main hand only, mace from the Citadel Ramparts which dropped and I won. So using these 2 weapons I dont do nearly the same damage as I do with my 2 daggers which are both 1.8 speed. Using the 2 slower weapons I seem to do about 150-250 dps and the dagers get me to 250-350. This is melee only with no shocks or anything applied. What am I doing wrong if you guys say that slower weapons should yield me more DPS than my fast ones.

Here is my armory link...


The Armory

I find it *very* unlikely that blizzard are trying to promote totem twisting. But yes, if you're totem twisting constantly it is tough on mana and nerf to shocks mana cost would make it possible to do a few more than normal.

I might be missing something here, but after looking at that site to calculate WF damage I'm fairly certain it's showing per-swing damage not a total for both WF attacks. The numbers do look high for indvidual attacks, but keep in ming there isn't any armor mitigation with those settings. At the very least the numbers are too small to be a total of both attacks since they have min OH WF < 2*min white OH, which with the additional WF ap just isn't possible. If it is per-swing you'd need to double the results of the WF damage to compare it to FT accurately.

The 36% proc rate you discovered versus the 20% proc rate is immaterial to the discussion at hand IMO. Even with the 36% proc rate when outside the 3 sec window, your MH proc rate % is still below 20%. The best I can ever get up to with 2.6 and 2.4 speed weapon is 16% on a good day. 15% is my average. I know that proc rate % goes up if I had a 2.6 speed OH weapon but it never reaches 20% With a WF/FT combo, your MH will proc the intended 20% of the time which means it will proc more than if you use the WF/WF combo.

No, it will still be a little under 20%, unless your MH is hitting over 3secs between swings after hastes/flurry..

True. You still end up with more overall MH WF procs using WF/FT than WF/WF, which was the point I was trying to make.

Disquette, there are several factors your simulation did not seem to take into account.

-How WF is effected by both avoidance and mitigation from armor assuming level 73 MoB with 5 Sunders
-Flametongue ignoring armor
-Flametongue with Nature's Guidance +3% spell hit
-Flametongue doesn't proc when you miss, possibly leading to hit rating gaining some importance in a WF/FT set up? I don't know
-Flametongue benefits from any fire debuffs stacked on the MoB
-Flametongue always scales well with haste whereas too much can negatively effect WF
-Stormstrike DPS, higher with WF/WF Slow/Slow, but by how much?
-Could using WF/FT versus WF/WF possibly land a net increase in MH WF procs, which could help scew the results in favor of FT? (I know you get a net loss in WF proc rate, but would you gain more overall MH procs that if the OH was "stealing" some of those procs, resulting in a bit more MH WF dps?)

I don't claim to be the experts you guys are, but I know when something isn't thorough enough to come to a solid conclusion. The setups really need to be modeled with everything in mind to gain a better understanding of how they compare.

And the point that I was making is that there is so much stuff that happens to counteract the benefits of FT on the offhand that WF/WF is probably still (significant) benefits to sticking with it.

As for the AP bonses and its scaling, consider the following:

100 increase to AP used on OH FT:
100 * 30% * 10% = 3 dmg per swing.
3 dmg * 86% = 2.58 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
2.58 * 1.09 = 2.81 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
2.81 * 1.1 = 3.09 (Curse of elements)
3.09 * 1.05 = 3.25 (5% spell crit rate)
3.25 * 1.15 = 3.74 (elemental weapons)

100 increase to AP used on OH WF:
100/14 = 7.14 (inherent AP scaling, NOT affected by OH penalty we now know)
7.14 * 1.1 = 7.85 (weapon mastery)
7.84 * 1.4 = 11 (elemental weapons)
11 * 1.35 = 14.85 (good crit rate)
14.85 * 80% = 11.88 (20% armor reduction)
11.88 * 2 = 23.76 (2 WF attacks per proc)
23.76 * 94% = 22.33 (6% of WF will be dodged)

In neither case have I factored in white hits/dodges, because neither of these can proc when the base attack doesn't land.

So...

From AP scaling alone, you have 3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 22.33 dmg/proc increase for WF. Put another way, for AP scaling only, you break even in damage between the two when you get more than 6 OH swings per 1 OH WF proc.

Now add in crit scaling, base weapon damage scaling as you get gear, increased flurry uptime, and (this is minimal) increased UR uptime, and WF still looks more attractive to me. Maybe I've missed something significant (such as main hand extra procs due to OH not eating any), but I think Slow/Slow will rule onwards.

I'd love to be proven wrong in RL testing, however, because high dps fast offhands are (so far) much easier to obtain than slow ones.

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IMPORTANT EDIT: Thanks to aroma for catching this - I was wrong in that the AP bonus from gear does indeed get halved by the OH penalty. This then becomes much more in favor of FT than it originally was. The actual comparison should be:

3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 11.16 dmg/proc increase for WF when you give a flat 100 AP bonus to each set up.
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