Hidden

The second for sure, it's around 29.5 Strength vs. 34 Hit Rating and 28 Crit Rating.

 

Stigmata

Just thought on the WF totem fix, The change is due to warriors spamstringing in pvp.

Wouldn't a simple fix have been to put spamstring on a CD?

 

panny

I thought a large part of the changes was to do with PvE balance of 2H vs DW for Warriors.

I don't disagree that Hamstring should be on a cooldown though (or diminishing returns at least).

 

◊ Rob

Door #2. AP's good (I stack it higher than most as my Armory shows) but by the item valuations posted here, the latter's better.

Decapitator, definitely. The extra AP on the Fool's Bane doesn't make up the DPS difference between the weapons.

 

Mindrila

I was doing a few COT2 farmruns with my Shaman and those magemobs took down my totems with pyros very often. So I got the idea, that the WoW-Server has something like Critline running and the mobs are thinking: "Hey its wood, wood burns good, lets try a new pyro crit at this sweet looking wooden windfury totem"

Somehow it was very funny for my group....

 

Hedin

oh, thats why Restor Druids die so often :-)))

WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.

 

Yo!

Numbers that you provided fit perfectly to the formulas:
initial fire shock damage = +sd*0,225+395
tick = +sd*0,105+110
with the exception being 0 +sd, which is interesting.
additional test with only 10 +sd can help resolve this
So, your numbers show that fire shock benefits from 64,5% of +spell damage, 22,5% goes to initial hit while 42% to ticks

 

Simian LeSinge

Hello all,

I noticed lots of you learned enhancedshammys put your 15-20ish non-enhance talent points in Resto.

When the focus of your theorycrafting all seems to be geared toward maximising DPS, this seems counter-intuitive.

Is it because:
Nature's Guidance + increased totem range + faster ankh for aggrodump
increases dps more than
Cheaper, faster, more damaging shocks + elemental devastation

Or is it a dps sacrifice for the added functionality in Resto?

In either case it'd be great to have something about the subject in the first post

 

Stigmata

The key is 3% hit from Resto tree and range on totems.

With shocks making up such a small amount of our damage I don't see the reasoning behing putting points into elemental.

 

Simian LeSinge

Is that a foregone conclusion? Maybe I should use my brain, but I'm afraid it's not my most finely tuned organ.

I hear shocks being quoted in this thread as ~10% of dps output.

The points in elemental would increase shock output ~126%

hmm, so that's only ~2% increase in total dps, not including the additonal crit from elemental devastation, but I guess uptime on that would be fairly low if you don't have +spellcrit gear.

So is the +3% hit worth a 2% increase in dps on it's own?

In that case I guess the elem points would definitely be poorly spent, unless you really really wanted faster interrupts.

 

Malan

Basically you trade 3% hit for some extra shock damage. The trade off is not going to be significant enough to get a DPS gain either way really. Going 19 resto just provides extra benefits - namely the extra 10 yards to totem range and improved Shaman Vanish which has saved my butt a lot lately.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

joelpt

Here's the direct link to that post.

Same-speed weapons decrease DPS?

 

Simian LeSinge

Hi Joe,

You say that the WF MH\OH proc ratio is 1:1

It was my understanding that when both weapons hit at the same time, the MH rolls first, then the OH. This would skew WF procs in favour of the MH.

Is your 50% split of WF procs borne out in testing?

 

Malan

Joe I'm not sure that what you're describing is really a stumbling block or that you're failing in anything. But really the difference in the 2.8/2.8 vs 2.8/2.7 DPS is going to be largely dependent on how hard the 2.7 OH is able to hit in order to make up for the large number of OH WF procs right?

Btw does anyone know of some open source software that runs on mac/unix that allows for very easy time line creation? I really need to be able to visualize WF cooldowns and weapon swing times graphically.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

joelpt

This may indeed be the source of the problem.

Specifically, in my current working version of the simulator, when weapons swing simultaneously, which hand swings first is randomly chosen. This is meant to simulate in-game behavior. In the older, released version of Shamulator (0.05) when weapons swing simultaneously, the MH always goes first.

I think the community opinion of this behavior is "MH always goes first" but Disquette suggested that it is in fact randomly chosen. I'm going to need to do some field testing to identify which case is correct.

If it is indeed randomly chosen, it would seem that same-speed weapons on the whole do negatively affect DPS.

 

Malan

I'm not sure about this. In your 2.8/2.7 example the Offhand is getting far more procs than in the 2.8/2.8 scenario. If you assumed standard distribution of MH:OH going first on a unified swing, than the proc rate between MH:OH should be similarly distributed as well. With more MH procs we should expect DPS to be higher, not lower, than the case where the OH gets more procs.

Perhaps there could be a special case for weapons that approach 3.0 speed? Does your sim currently show the same results for a 2.6/2.5 vs 2.6/2.6? What about 1.5/1.5 vs 1.5/1.4?

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

joelpt

That is correct. The question is whether it does.

As currently simulated (working version, see my previous post) it does not compensate enough (when comparing 2.8/2.8 to 2.8/2.7, with OH DPS staying the same on both speeds, tested over several OH DPS's). But when NOT randomizing simultaneous-swing order (aka v0.05 behavior), it does compensate enough, with 2.8/2.8 doing better than 2.8/2.7 (and worse than 2.8/2.9).

So .. field testing needed.

 

Malevolencia

I have recently acquired equal speed weapons and have been testing just this. I find that there are a number of possibilities:

1) If you wait to be in melee range before you enter combat mode. Then your MH will hit immediately, there will be a slight delay, and then the OH will hit (ie they won't be synchronized even though same base speed).

2) If you enter combat before being in melee range, then when you reach the target both weapons will hit simultaneously. It seems to be random which weapon will hit first (though it appears to be much more likely for me that the OH hits first), but the order in which they hit at the start will remain the order of swings (which continue to be simultaneous) until you exit combat, or go out of melee range again, or turn to face the wrong way then back to the mob.

My personal feeling is that the mechanics of weilding 2 equal speed weapons are rather dodgy from the point of view of maximising MH procs, mainly due to the problems I'm having with getting the MH to be the one swinging first when they're synchronised (it really seems a lot more likely that the OH does). Personally I'm thinking that a slower OH than MH is the way to go (ideally [Dragonstrike] MH and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] OH) Since that way as you said you reduce the time between wf chances, and since MH is the faster one it will be stealing OH procs more for more MH procs overall..

 

joelpt

This is very interesting. Going to verify this in-game.

If this is accurate, I'll have to consider exactly how this behavior should be simulated.

In the first case you describe, this would significantly improve MH:OH proc chance, and would be basically equivalent to having the MH always go first when swings are synced. OH would always swing a bit after every MH, so MH would get to proc WF first following the vast majority of WF cooldowns.

In your second observation, I'm not sure whether DPS would be affected by just switching which hand gets to swing first periodically, compared to just picking it randomly on every swing (which is the way I've got it implemented in test).

A useful way to simulate this might be to give the simulated 'opponent' some fixed number of hitpoints. When you "kill" the opponent, the next fight would pick randomly from (a) MH swinging a little before the OH does (your observation 1), or (b) prefer one or the other hand for first-swing through the entire fight (observation 2).

If simulated this way, then the MH would be getting favored for WF procs in 2 out of 3 possible fights. Some quick numbers suggest that this consequent boost to MH:OH% would outweigh the benefit of the higher total WF procs received when using a slightly faster OH weapon.

I'll see if I can verify this in in-game testing. If the OH actually does get chosen to 'lead' more often than MH when swings are synced, then the exact percentage of time this occurs may be the determining factor in whether same-speed weapons will come out better than using a slightly faster OH.

And I'd have to agree, dodgy is an accurate description. Though again, the 3-sec WF cooldown is quite dodgy in itself (and none of this would even be relevant without that cooldown).

 

Iol

If there was no cooldown, we could use so many more weapons. Parts of me wishes that they make a fast OH with Flametongue an equal if not better dps than dual WF just for that reason.

I wonder how bad WF would have to be nerf to allow the same powerscale as now, but without a cooldown.

 

Ketrew

My guild forums are already buzzing about the recent nurf to windfury and I have no doubt that there will be questions regarding slotting me. How do you guys feel this change will effect raid slotting? Should my group makeup change? I've always had 3 rogues and a two-hander MS warrior in my group. Should the MS warrior be replaced with a duel wield fury warrior, rogue, or feral druid given this change? I'd appreciate your thoughts so I could come to my raid tonight with some solutions to this change.

-Tenion

 

Malan

That's pretty much what the new spell damage talent is going to do for us. It makes FT a viable replacement. Maybe not *as* good, but it at least lets you make use of weapons you have access to in cases where only daggers or other fast items are dropping. That way you're at least not toting around a lvl 64 green weapon purely for the speed.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Mirken

I realize these questions been asked at length, but I just want to be sure. I am leveling a shaman (currently level 50) and want to start thinking ahead about entry-level raid gear. Currently, my guild is 3/4 of the way through Kara, so that's the best gear I'll probably be seeing for some time (my playstyle is too casual to get into BT, Hyjal, SSC, etc.). Having said that, I've run a few trials of Lootzor, with heroic instances being set as the maximum tier. From what I am seeing, leather armor, in all but a few occasions, seems to offer the best options.

Is it really advisable to heed lootzor and take mostly leather gear for a shaman and lose the extra armor? Secondly, from what I am seeing, intellect and mp/5 are generally not deciding factors on gear. How much attention do I need to pay to intel? I'd like to work on my leatherworking to eventually obtain the ebon netherscale set, but I don't want to waste my time with this if leather is going to be a better option.

Lastly, I fully understand the theoretical "valley" of weapon speeds when factoring in haste. According to posts that I have been seeing, 45-50% haste is the range to avoid. Is this range including flurry, or is the 45-50% just referring to additional haste from items, enchants, etc. I'm considering using Drakefist Hammer (2.6 speed, 212 haste rating increase) with Runic Hammer (2.4 speed) once I hit 70. With this combination, dual mongoose, and all the other typical attack speed increases for a shaman, will I still be outside of the "valley" and ok on DPS?

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

 

Malan

Yes. Although if you're just starting out I'd make sure you avoid the stuff that has zero stam on it as you'll have a rough time if you're sitting at 6-7k HP.

Basically ignore it. If you use SR early in a fight and always paired with an AP trinket you'll have almost no mana problems. Yell at a paladin to toss JoW once or twice (doesn't need to keep it up, just put it on at least once) and you'll be fine.

Keyword here is theory. While we theorize that the 1.41-1.51 speed range is bad for WF procs, we don't have much in-game testing on it. One person has responded that they had below 1.51 due to haste items and that they did not see the expected decrease, so right now its a toss up.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Tornhoof

I did the math with my model and the changes in wf for combat sword rogue and dual wield fury warrior are in the 3-5% range for combat sword and some 5-8% for dual wield fury.
Endgame rogues are probably less affected than endgame fury warriors, since the amount of yellow attacks for a combat sword rogue is limited by the energy regeneration, which is not as fluctuating as rage for a warrior

http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/