That haste range represents an amount of haste such that a typical main hand (speed 2.6+) will get 2 main hand swings inside your windfury dead zone as opposed 1 main hand swing in dead zone and then 1 shortly after the dead zone cools down.

Even though this haste increases white damage linearly, in this range it causes a dramatic drop in the % of swings that will proc windfury so the reduced yellow damage is greater than the increased white damage.

Appreciate the answers.

A real quick off the haste topic....

Would +weapon skill matter much? I'm not too aware of the mechanics but is it worth wearing specific items for the skill?

I've been wondering just how good weapon skill is for us also. I've been mainhanding Rising Tide over Syphon of the Nathrezim, mainly because of the orc racial. I'm not certain that this is the best way to go, though.

Alright, I saw a clear clarification that the best speed for an offhand is 2.6, but what about the main hand? Does it just not matter, or would that be around 2.6 as well. I would for some reason imagine it needs to be a little faster then that. Because you're wanting the next hand to have a chance to proc WF after the cooldown is up to be the main hand. If they are the same speed, it would be an = chance. Which would not be optimum. Correct?

It's generally considered advantageous to have matching weapon speeds, both as slow as possible (2.7 is better than 2.6 etc, although weapons slower than 2.6 are quite uncommon). The reason to match speeds is to take advantage of the apparent property of both weapons swinging only eating 1 charge of flurry, thus increasing your flurry uptime.

The issue is the itemization just isn't there. There is no OH slower than 2.6, so there is no reason to get a MH slower than that either (although there aren't many that are slower).

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29996 begs to differ with you.

1) Good luck taking that from a Rogue/Warrior based solely on the proc (granted, most Rogues I know that are good don't go Maces nowadays).

2) Most guilds aren't killing Kael at the moment. Just because it's in the game doesn't mean it's as accessible as the Cleaver to most people.

There is always http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32262



There was a several threads in this forums about weapon skill in TBC but it seems there is still no reliable answer on this. If that famous blue post about weapon skill has right values, then weapon skill point to point (considering item budget) better than hit raiting or crit raiting.

I'm really liking that mace. Just a little ways off for me, though.

Your base miss rate for white attacks is 24% against even-level mobs, and 25.5% is the accepted figure for boss (L73) mobs. But many of us believe (mostly because of calculation rather than testing) that hit rating is less important than your other stats, even before you hit the cap. There are a few reasons for this: hit only increases white damage--since the base yellow miss rate is 5%, you cap that quickly, so SS and WF get nothing from increased hit, except the marginal improvement in WF proc rate per time resulting from hitting slightly more with white attacks. An additional reason crit is strong compared to hit is that crit produces more UR and flurry procs.

Your current weapon combo is pretty good, as is your gear selection overall. You will see a very good DPS upgrade by getting the Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver (or hammer) for MH first, then OH. The first post in this thread has some good ideas for your OH until you get Merciless Gladiator's.

After reviewing some of the modeling results I've dropped something like 2-3% of my Hit items and replaced with Crit instead and have seen significant DPS increases as a result.

So what would be a safe rule for +hit in general? 200? 150?

And has anyone done modeling for the benefits of atk vs. crit? The way I imagine things , I would have to get my AP very very high for my hits to make up the difference of a very high crit rating (especially since the flurry would be less).

I don't believe anyone has researched the question "how low do you have to let hit drop before it starts to be a more important stat than crit (or str)?"

My take on it has just been to use the lootzor weights we calculated (see my sig) and pick upgrades based on that. The most radical thing I did was to replace a bunch of my gems with 8 str.

As far as your second question, that's answered in the original post of this thread. The weights I use are
Str = 1.1
Agi & CR = 1.0
HR = 0.7
AP = 0.5


Because of the itemization formula, you don't really care whether you see str, agi, cr, or AP on an item--they're equally good (within 10% weight of each other). (Bear in mind, though, as always, that you'll get more benefit if there are several stats than if there are few stats.) Seeing a little hit on an item is OK, but a lot of hit on an item probably means it's not very good compared to other items of the same ilvl.

I posted something similar a few days back and found that according to your sim +hit offers similar benefit weather you're adding hit rating starting from 0 or adding the same amount to cap yourself. The aspect I didn't look at was if the value of str or crit changed when hit was changed. Is there reason to think they would?

I've been sitting at 100ish hit rating for a long time, in addition to the 9% I get from talents. Hit has been wildly overblown for a while now, most likely because it is so good for rogues and warriors, and those were the people we asked for advice when enhancement became viable.

I follow the weightings outlined in threads like this and it has always worked out fine. I'll gladly post a WWS of pretty much any encounter. People with like 200+ hit rating and +8 hit gems in every socket are just making a big mistake.

so what is the general consenus on +hit then?

I understand how much is needed to get 99% hit, but at what point does it stop being more effective than the rest of your gear?

I see tons of values posted but too many mix my head up it would seem. A straight answer might help a bit more.

Also wouldn't mind any general tips on my current gear and talent set-up!

edit: meaning to move points around in talent set up towards weapon totems and maybe 2H for general pvp fun

Sorry for forgetting that you had posted that, Morelis!


@Suazo, check my sig for explicit gear recommendations. If you're looking for a simple instruction, it would be "Get STR/Crit/Agi/AP. Ignore Hit. Avoid INT/MP5."
You're definitely taking the right approach with your current gear. Get a slower OH if you can (see top post for suggestions). Your DPS will probably improve if you swap out all gems for 8 STR or 8 CR. I don't see any problems (from a DPS standpoint) with your talent build.

I have a question that isn't directly relative to this thread but something is seriously wrong with either enhancement aggro or our tanks.

Basically, I was under the assumption that if you give a tank a 8-12 second head start on any decently hard hitting mob without a deaggro (From trash to bosses), that he should be able to hold aggro over you no matter what. I can understand pulling aggro off an ms warrior after he's had it for 10-15 seconds because of poor threat generation but this is now the 2nd time I've pulled aggro from a tank at sub-10% on one of Vashj's Melee Guardian adds the spawn in phase 2. I give the tank about 10 seconds to position it while i avoid cleave/drop totem/wait etc. and now have ended up pulling aggro at low % and dying. I'm not getting huge crits (i.e. 2, 2k + windfury) its just basically pretty normal damage. I didn't even have Hourglass in because I use my pvp trinket to escape roots in a dire situation.

How are you guys avoiding stuff like this or is this not even an issue for most of you? Most of the time KTM isn't helpful as so many things have already been tanked/KTM isn't set to my target, I have no idea about how much threat the tank has except basically by how long he's had aggro/how many sunders on it, and have no way to gauge my threat accordingly. I'm just under the assumption tank should be doing 800-900 TPS, at best I'd be doing about that; tank has 10 second start, there's no way it should be possible for me to pull aggro.

Easy answer? Get your raid to switch over to Omen as it can handle per-target threat. If your RL or whoever is in charge of mod selection reads these boards, there's a thread in progress.

The hard answer basically has you survey all your OTs for their average TPS or just trash your DPS, both of which are less then ideal.

If you aren't in a guild running omen then you just need to know how well each tank individually is at generating threat, and lower dps if you are on a mob with a poor tank. In the long run if you can prove that tank is worse than others then getting his class leader / some officer to help him work on better threat gen is a good idea. There are quite a few fights later on where dps needs to be very high right from the go, and low threat tanks will cause you alot of problems. That said, if a tank is actually good at threat gen then there is very little in game you should ever be able to peel off them (bar trash, which often hits so weak their threat gen is alot lower).

As to gear, I'm now down to 110 hit rating (and that may well drop further if I get a 2nd decent trinket). I am however giving a trial to both -armour (Choker of Serrated Blades) and passive haste (two Band of Devastations and Fists of Mukoa). Its clear from some very simple testing (my average raid dps) that the passive haste is an awesome boost, but with the random nature of shaman dps it is harder to quantify exactly how much the +haste is worth.

The -armour I am less sure on however. I know its a dps boost, but has anyone tested how it compares to hit/crit/ap in terms of how much it costs in the budget?