Myul

735 dps on a servant? On hogger? On what time length, with what buff?
Today i managed to deal 5000 dps according to wws while slaying two rabbits.. you got it?

I my opinion it's not worth getting the gm weapons since you will have to spend 15.300 honor each. The time wasted in bgs you can easily spend on leveling to 70, leveling professions or running instances for reputation, since the blue heroic drops listed on page 1 are all equal or slightly better then those purple 59 dps toys.
Even with an instant queue you will have to spend 3 full days of playing to get them, and with no instant join option it will be even more difficult.

 

LemmingRus

I leveled as Enhancement.. but back then 2 forms of WF would stack.

I switched to Elemental and have 4/5 T5 and 3/3 Netherstrike, which left nothing to really upgrade as we are having trouble with Kael atm. (LW obviously)

So, I decided to pop back to my Enhancement gear I have been collecting (2 days ago, ie the lack of rare gems/enchants) and would like to ask a few questions:

1). I have been using the link to lootzer to upgrade my gear as needed. Should I only use that after I have more hit? I checked my WWS and had a horrid 22.5% miss rate on Kael. I think my hit was 34 and was in elemental (so, no +3% from resto). Obviously I will change that, but what hit rate should I go for? I see some saying 100, 150, and other saying max.
I am hoping to finish the Ebon Tunic for the +20 hit set bonus and exchange my gems with matching colors.

2). As both my weapons are 2.6, should I be placing WF on both? I was running WF/FT.

3). What can I do to drop lower my threat more? Was planning on the threat red from cloak and was debating the gloves. (sure the Vash trinket would be great, but it needs to drop already)

Thanks for reading and helping if you can. See my profile's armory link for my current gear.

 

Malan

The issue with +Hit was that people were valuing it way over AP/Crit at very early stages of the 70 end-game, stacking to the cap with shit levels of AP/Crit and it just wasn't worth it. Obviously staying at 100 Hit for the entire game wouldn't be the goal, you want to hit the cap. The idea is just that you should not sacrifice your other stats to achieve hit cap first - hit becomes more important as you gain in your other stats.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

LemmingRus

That's what I was thinking, just saw weird posts pointing over directions.

Also, after the new patch, wont FT become a more viable option for OH vs WF (with high AP)? Or won't really get THAT much better to overcome the difference? (kinda rides on the first question of WF/WF is better?)

 

Malan

The changes are going to allow FT to be more viable. Calculations right now show that WF is still better if you have the weapon for it. This change is really just helping people starting out as DW Enhance - this way they can grab an easily available dagger and use WF/FT instead of using a shitty green OH with WF just because its slow. At some point when they have access to decent slow weapons they'll want to swap out to slow/WF again.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Ketrew

I'm currently using [Drakefist Hammer] and [Runic Hammer] with windfury on both. With the upcomming change would this mean I should be using FT on my offhand since its faster?

 

everwatch

I don't believe that is a fair statement considering Tornhoof's post on it or some of the debates. Basic theory indicated that the difference was marginal enough with enough passive haste that you could use either. In addition, Disq, Torn, and others have not put in anywhere near the same level of research yet into this, nor can anyone even play test this on the PTR to see how these ideas pan out.

I think the safest thing to be said is actually depending on how you gear your character will directly determine whether WF or FT on your OH will be a superior selection. This might even lead to a development of gear builds that favor FT while keeping up the DPS bar instead of using WF exclusively.

http://www.skeletonjack.com/

 

Malan

Wait, what? Disquette ran FT through his sim with no resists figured in and it STILL came out behind windfury. I think its more than fair to say that its viable but not surpassing WF.

Edit - Here is Tornhoof's post on it. http://elitistjerks.com/441312-post1127.html
His conclusion is exactly what I said - it allows more weapons to be viable for use as FT will be close to WF dmg. Note that in particular he said that his testing included lots of passive haste and that a player without that haste will have lower results on FT.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Severjanin

Against Gruul for nine minutes (yes, we had people below 500dps and quite a few barely above... ) with Battle Shout, Leader of the Pack, 20 strength food buff, Unstable Flask of the Beast, I think also improved Hunter's Mark.

Running instances as enhancement isn't so easy as you make it seem and he already has Enchanting/Tailoring at max.
While waiting an evening or so making a group you can easily spend that time running a battleground or two and you'll accumulate points in the end.
If you get your weapon drop before 15k honor, great. You can spend what you had on a Veteran's piece instead.
At this level, pvp items are viable and imo much easier to get than specific heroic drops.

And the High Warlord's Cleaver outperformed the Boggspine Knuckle on a Servant at the Dark Portal before a Karazhan raid. Granted, I had the 2,5speed Paw rather than a same speed mh when I tested.

 

Khlysti

Since there hasn't been any solid 'armour penetration is better than x at y range' type info that I have seen I have made an attempt to value it as a stat to try to answer the very basic 'does armour penetration perform better than its item budget value suggest vs strength in a raid environment?'.

I used my own raid buffed stats to get some numbers for dps from melee damage against a 0 armour target, ran sims again to value changes in strength at that stat level and calculated effects of changing armour. Clearly with lower stats armour penetration will have a lower value in comparison to strength, however it will provide the same % boost to your dps, its just that a fixed % of a lower number is a lower total change.

Numbers used were 3100AP, 12.84% passive haste, 35% crit, 18% hit (those numbers include unleashed rage, +hit from talents etc, where sims added those effects themselves numbers entered were lowered to keep values correct).

Checking item budget formulae armour penetration came out as 7.05 armour penetration = 1 'stat' and the 'jumps' I used were of 141 armour penetration, same budget cost as 20 of a stat.

The basic results I got were that at any level of mob armour, I would see a gain of 0.894% dps from 20 str . Armour penetration gave a gain of more than this when mob armour was below 5350.

If we take a mob with full sunders and faerie fire active, then it can have ~8560 armour or less for armour penetration to be worth 'more than its budget value vs strength'. This break point will be lower for players with worse gear, and higher as gear improves more. That said, to my knowledge (please do correct this assumption if it is wrong) raid boss armour is in the 5000-8000 range for most encounters. There are some notable examples with far less, but if we assume most are in that range then:

The range from 1833-4794 gives a sensible range of possible armour values for a random boss. Within this range the %dps gain from removing 141 armour varies from 1.151% to 0.93%. Even at the top end this is still better than the 0.894% gain from 20str, so armour penetration is 'better than the budget suggests vs strength' atleast for my gear level.

If this armour range is correct then we can say on average 7.05 armour penetration will be worth 1.166 times as much as 1 strength. Or that 1 armour penetration is worth 0.364 attack power. Although that last value is clearly of very little use by itself it does tell us that armour penetration is very much in the 'good to have' camp.

'Things which are true':

The better your gear the more you will gain from armour penetration.

Until your target has 0 armour each point of penetration is more valuable than the last.

Once your target has 0 armour further points of penetration do nothing.

 

everwatch

In all previous theories there has been solid testing to back up, or refute, the findings. This cannot be done as of this time. Meaning the theories cannot be held/found true yet.

..."with enough passive haste" means that it is possible to make FT better, especially if you get the right gear (specialized to white damage and FT) and a superior fast weapon.

http://www.skeletonjack.com/

 

Minas

I thought of this while looking at weapons. If I'm using Fool's Bane, Runic Hammer, and Abacus of Violent Odds my haste effect + flurry will take my OH into the "valley" between 1.42 and 1.5 and leave my MH above 1.5.

Has anyone thought this over as a strategy? I can't keep up with most of the modeling on this forum - has this effect been taken into account? Does this combination make Runic a better OH choice than Gladiator's?

 

Malan

I'm really having a hard time understanding what you're disputing from my original statement, which began with the words calculations right now show... I do not think its that big of a leap to extrapolate what happens when we add 800 or so spell damage to our kit and then calculate how much dps a known mechanic such as FT will do, compared to another mechanic that we have a decent model of. Your followup with all the underlining of the haste quotation only provides the evidence to what I said - that Tornhoof's testing which showed FT as "close" to WF was only because his test included that haste.

Can more testing be done? Sure of course. Have the changes been looked and considered roughly enough that we can draw some conclusions? I'd say so.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

everwatch

2) 3 Rogue, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Sham (this happens in my guild the most often)

So does anyone have any ideas on this combo? WF or GoA?

Thanks

http://www.skeletonjack.com/

 

Malan

What are the rogue specs?

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

• Shabadu

If you're comfortable weaving your air totem, there's no reason not to use both, or WF and tranquil as the situation requires.

 

Tornhoof

Just to clarify my opinion on flametongue and maybe frostbrand.

With the current models and formulas, it will be possible to surpass WF in dps with extreme +haste gear (which will be awesome for dual wf too). I think the best way will be to get two OH weapons, one slow one fast, use dual wf on low armor mobs and wf/ft on high armor mobs. With surpass, I don't mean much more, just a bit, due to the external buffs like CoE.

On the other hand I don't think the talent tree from blizzcon will make it into the game with 30% +spelldmg from ap

http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

 

Dukanull

I personally can't see 30% dmg making it either, although I'm hoping. Seems to me like it'd be way too nice, almost imbalanced, for us, we'd be able to keep ourselves alive A LOT easier, and the bonus to shocks would be cake. I hope, but am not counting on it.

Vindication-wow.com

 

Malan

I'm giving some consideration to dropping Alchemy and picking up either Blacksmith or Leatherworking without the appropriate gathering profession - so I'd be paying for all the mats. I'm curious if I'd get the bigger bang from my buck through leatherworking (drums, BoP boots, etc recipes) or the smithing (weapon ... and that's about it right?).

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

TradewindKlaatubarada

I picked BS only because of the weapon. Altough haste nerf is a bad thing, I'm hoping to see some continuity over time in those weapons.

Getting a good weapon is harder (and more decisive) than just getting some BoP boots from TK.

Also weapons will be upgraded from one to another, wich leads me to think that they will grow better and better (and most of the time at a higher or max-equivalent pace than current high-end content) whilst random armor pieces will be quite similar to normal drops from bosses.

All in all, weapons seem a better choice.

 

drc

I'd pick LW for the simple reason that it gives you more than one item (meaning you'd need more luck with drops to replace them all) and increases your group's damage. Another thing, depending on your guild's progress, there are weapons with higher dps than [Dragonstrike], namely [Rising Tide], [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or [Rod of the Sun King].

Think of how stupid the average user is. Now realize half of them is even dumber than that.

 

• Disquette

The other ones you mentioned are indeed a straight dps upgrade, but I don't think any of their stats makes up an average passive 70 haste rating.

 

Igniter

Haste also just got a small nerf for melee, and a buff for casters. Blizzard is really on the melee offensive right now, so we'll need to fix the value of haste rating now.

Haste Rating (melee)

Live: 10.5 haste rating for 1% haste
PTR: 15.7 haste rating for 1% haste

We will lose around 3% for every 100 haste rating (6.6% haste off dragonstrike alone).

 

Nazgull

high dps doesnt mean better weapon...
nothing can replace the haste proc with or without the nerf

 

Sharmania

How doese it have 70 passive haste rating?Where was the PPM calculated?
Acording to this post : WoW-Europe.com Forums -> The idea behind weapon skill?
Orcs would gain...
1.0% less chance to miss
0.5% less chance to be dodged
3.0% less chance to be parryed(Wich shouldn't happen with you being behind mob though)
1.0% chance to crit
.....by useing an axe, so the rising tide(or wicked edge if you're bs) would be much better.
Now for other races, if it's indeed 70HasteR, is that enough to surpass the syphons superior dps and speed?I do not know to be honest.

And the Original Post is quite lackluster with MH weapon advices actually, might want to tinker with that.