I've been trying to absorb all the advice regarding weapon choices, but I'm having some difficulty, so maybe someone can help me with my specific situation.
I just made a Drakefist Hammer for my Shaman, and I'm thinking about getting a Runic Hammer made for my OH. Is this a good idea since the Runic is faster than the Drakefist? Also, if I do use the Runic Hammer, is 2xMongoose worse than Mongoose/Crusader, since flurry+drakefist+2xMongoose will (I think) bring my Runic into the 1.5-1.41 speed valley?
I'm a draenei, so i'll basically stick with my Dragonstrike once i'm able to chose from that weapons. Might get one to test once the people interested in them get's their.
On a side note, i just quit my old guild and i'm applying to a new guild. This one is already on Vashj and killed Al'ar while my old guild just downed Morogrim and was wiping on Al'ar yet.
My real problem is that i'm basically on Karahzan gear, and as such, my stats and my life are lower than it should be to this level of raids. First raid i did with them, i died quite often because of too much damage and becauz my old guild kept pissing me off, flooding me, nocking me on instant messenger and even some people i trusted before kept disconnecting me while in the raid as they had my password.
I'm gonna be allowed a new test, but i'm really concerned how i could improve my survivability into Fathom-Lord, Al'ar and trash mobs into all this as such they see i cant withstand their raiding level? Buffed i get to 9.8-10k life if i get a imp, wich is not aways, while their rogues get around 11-12k life with their current gear and buffings.
This guild understand enhance and really think that a enhance pushs his weight on raids, contrary to my previous guild. I can't allow to lose this opportunity and as such, all hints would be very appreciated^^
You can actually find all your answers in the OP.
Unless you are able to kill Al'ar or have sick arena ratings, runic hammer will last you quite some time even though it's faster.
2xMongoose is the best choice if you can afford it, and about the valley, it seems that in-game testing is proving it wrong, atleast from what i gather in the OP.
It should be around
1.0% less chance to miss
0.5% less chance to be dodged
3.0% less chance to be parryed(Wich shouldn't happen with you being behind mob though)
0.5% chance to crit
That should be a net 2% increase in your damage while dual wielding axes, but i think guess, the mace is still scaling a little better.
But then again, another author claims "Note that this creates a "sweet spot" when attacking a mob 3 levels above the player (including "skull" bosses). Equipping an item that grants 5 extra weapon skill will effectively increase the player's chance to hit by a full 2%. 4 weapon skill would only grant 0.8% to hit, while 6 skill would give 2.1%." (Source)
That's different from the table above...
Originally Posted by T.K.
.. lack of healthpoints ..
Without an armory link we can't give you detailed hints on improving your equipment, but there are some things you could look at:
You won't need the best dps gear on the trash and on heavy aoe bosses you will really want 10.000 hp buffed, skipping some damage gear can be necessary.
Wouldn't the new value of haste be 1.54? Only seems logical if it's a 33% nerf.
Before: 10.518 haste rating = 1% haste
After: 15.7 haste rating = 1% haste
So it's acutally a 33% nerf.
Originally Posted by Sashiel
.. regarding weapon choice ..
Runic hammer is still the best offhand avaible for you until you can save enough arena points for getting the cleaver or pummeler.
Mongoose is the enchant you should be looking for, it's an remarkable positive difference to 20 strength or crusader.
Last edited by Myul : 08/18/07 at 4:18 PM.
Reason: added some points
Hi, back again with 1 more question... I just left my raiding guild for various reasons, and I'm now essentially unable to get into anything beyond Karazhan. Should I pick-up the Midnight Leggings until my guild progresses into Gruul's or keep the Blue Mail Leggings I've currently been wearing? :-\ I'm very uneasy about shifting to Leather, so I thought this would be a good place to gain info.
When I build a scale using Pater's sim and my current stats with the change to haste it has dropped from 1.9 to 1.24. It basically makes any of the passive haste items next to worthless dropping most of them down to be inferior to SSC/TK items. I can only hope it's an honest mistake on their part otherwise haste will be regarded as worst of the melee dps stats by a large margin.
If the change is intended it's another prime example of a knee-jerk "balancing" done by people who really don't seem to understand the mechanics of their own game. I had been impressed that things like haste and -armor had slotted in so evenly with other stats I guess it was too good to be true though.
(i skipped kazzak and the craftable legs, because they have no stats)
For farming, leather isn't that good. But on raids, you could wear cloth if it has better stats, since there's no encounter where you will have to do some tanking.
Next time, you should use lootzor as mentioned in the start post to check out for gear upgrades.
Morelis
I think, haste rating will still have their benefits, but not that much for the shaman.
Warrior gain more rage, rogues more energy ticks and hunter could reach new breakpoints for their cycles, but since we have that odd 3s cd on wf and beside that maybe only dst - so not that much on hit=procc items, it's allready only an alternative, not superior.
Maybe that will change again with the 2.3 patch and a faster hitting flametongue on your offhand, but that's unimportant for now.
--
If i calculated it correclty, despite that nerf to haste rating, mongoose still the way to go!?
Last edited by Myul : 08/18/07 at 4:48 PM.
Reason: woha so many posts in such a short time
About the BS mace, i found on wowhead someone who had tested it to be 1.4PPM, and it seems to be the only one who tryed this with proc watch.
Unless i'm wrong, and that's a distinct possiblity :P, the hammer would avrg 50Haste Rating.
So with the haste nerf, and takeing 1.6AEP value for haste, it would be worth 80AEP.
In comparsion, the stats on Syphon alone(not counting proc) would be 50AEP this ofcourse also haveing superior speed and dps
As for the weapon skill, i think it's hard to test it out so for now i'll take the blue's word on it;Either way, it is deffineatly worth it to wear axes over other weapons, specially since Glad axe is so easy to get.
Those values are determined for a a karazhan geared shaman and not a bt/mh raiding
3000 ap 35% crit 25% hit
beast with dst. I hardly doubt, that haste has such a low benefit for those stats.
Dragonstrike has a roughly 1.5 PPM*, that's (212+212/2)/4=80 haste rating on average.
Using 1hr=2.0 aep, it's worthy 160 aep.
* = was tested on this board, but can't find it for the moment with the search function, i'm sorry.
Imho, syphon is to slow for your mainhand (while not dual wielding it) and i would prefer [Rising Tide] slightly over it (for your offhand).
---
Regarding AEP, i was looking at the thread "Relentless Earthstorm Diamond - melee only?" and since it's unquestionable one of the better meta gems, shouldn't we value crit & agi higher?
[top]It makes your crits go from 200% to 209% crits, the bonus goes from 100% to 109%.
This makes crit 9% more useful than it is right now for damage, so if you had 1 crit rating
Raidbuffed scenario (including assumed haste changes from patch 2.2) for the 2200/25/22 setup.
Ok, i hadn't seen testing of the drakefist / dragonmaw proc before, and I'd always taken for granted they were right.
I just did testing to confirm/deny the 1.4 or 1.5 proc rate.
I used a blasted lands mob and tested for 1998 seconds, stormstike ever time it was up, windfury on both weapons. I did not have any other haste effects (procs, on use), and I have no passive haste gear.
I then paired up each "You gain haste" and "Haste fades from you" line, subtracting the first from the second (because you can rehaste while already hasted - it doesn't stack, but there's no internal cooldown). This gave me a total uptime, in time, not in terms of attacks.
Results:
Time in Combat 1998
Time in Haste 421
% uptime 26.6%
Base Haste Rating 212
Effective Avg Haste Rating 56.45
Is 33.3 min an acceptable amount? I don't know, but it is the only test I've seen so far. I'd love a link to the other tests if people can find it?
I suppose this doesn't say much about the base PPM, but using WF/Stormstrike and having the flurry talent is how we play, and I'd rather test for the actual uptime instead of trying to calculate it.
Those values are determined for a a karazhan geared shaman and not a bt/mh raiding
3000 ap 35% crit 25% hit
beast with dst. I hardly doubt, that haste has such a low benefit for those stats.
Dragonstrike has a roughly 1.5 PPM*, that's (212+212/2)/4=80 haste rating on average.
Using 1hr=2.0 aep, it's worthy 160 aep.
* = was tested on this board, but can't find it for the moment with the search function, i'm sorry.
Imho, syphon is to slow for your mainhand (while not dual wielding it) and i would prefer [Rising Tide] slightly over it (for your offhand).
---
Regarding AEP, i was looking at the thread "Relentless Earthstorm Diamond - melee only?" and since it's unquestionable one of the better meta gems, shouldn't we value crit & agi higher?
Raidbuffed scenario (including assumed haste changes from patch 2.2) for the 2200/25/22 setup.
Thanks for testing this Disquette, this has been bugging me for quite a while now!
Anyway it seems the Dragonstrike is about 13AEP better than Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver, but the cleaver has more sta on it and dps plus if you're an orc like me it's a clear winner.
Seems i don't have to get BS afterall.
A readjusment of the DST value is in order though, wonder how close to Tsunami it is now!
[Dragonstrike]: 96 AEP (using the above mentioned values) [Rising Tide]: ~74 AEP + ~3 DPS more (since 12 AP increase your damage by 1 DPS, that makes 36 AEP extra), total of 110 AEP, 14 AEP more than Dragonstrike [Syphon of the Nathrezim]: 50 AEP + Proc + ~3 DPS more (36 AEP), total 86 AEP (not including the proc), 10 AEP less than Dragonstrike [Rod of the Sun King]: 50 AEP + ~1 DPS more (12 AEP), total 62 AEP, 34 AEP less than Dragonstrike
The total value is only valid when comparing those weapon to Dragonstrike.
Those values do not take higher avg damage (meaning higher WF and Stormstrike damage) into account.
Am I totally wrong with this stuff (especially my DPS-AEP-equation)?
Think of how stupid the average user is. Now realize half of them is even dumber than that.
Thanks for testing this Disquette, this has been bugging me for quite a while now!
Anyway it seems the Dragonstrike is about 13AEP better than Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver, but the cleaver has more sta on it and dps plus if you're an orc like me it's a clear winner.
Seems i don't have to get BS afterall.
A readjusment of the DST value is in order though, wonder how close to Tsunami it is now!
As it stands now now (2.12):
[Tsunami Talisman] 141 AEP assuming a 0.9 ppm
[Dragonspine Trophy] 202.5 AEP assuming a 1.5 ppm
Now, since DST has 40 passive AP, 40 AEP of the total will not change.. The haste AEP would then be 162.5. Assuming haste is 33% less effective, that would make the hasted AEP component weigh in at ~108.33. Unless I'm crazy, that would mean the new value would be 148.33 AEP, assuming a 1.5 ppm.
So for patch 2.2:
[Tsunami Talisman] 141 AEP assuming a 0.9 ppm
[Dragonspine Trophy] 148.33 AEP assuming a 1.5 ppm
DST is still slightly better overall, but not by much.
drc
I really doubt, you can simply add the 3 extra dps (1 dps = 14 ap) with aep, but what's more important, you got higher min/maxdmg. And it's 0.1 speed faster, since wf is not normalised, you will lose some dps there.
Syphon is 0.1 slower with higher min & maxdmg, what add some extra ss dps. And i miss the gladiator weapons in this comparison.
But i can just say again, you should really revalue the aep for that point of gearlevel (beginning of even at the end of the t6 niveau).
At least, you will have 5% more crit, but i think it's even more (hit, crit & ap).
Beowulf [Tsunami Talisman] scales bad with crit, let's see:
regarding to Procs with/without internal cooldowns it has a 45s cooldown,
with 30% crit it's 49s to activate
with 40% crit it's 47s to activate
with 50% crit it's 46s to activate
So, you can safely work with 50s, resulting in a 1.2 ppm (6 proccs in 5 minutes, what really differs from the main page claim of 0.9 ppm). That's +68 aep on average (340 ap for 10 seconds, 40 seconds of no buff -> 340/5=68).
Add 10 hit, that's 10*1.4 = 14 aep
Add 38 cr * 2.18 = 83 aep
83 + 14 + 68 = 165 aep if i've not done a mistake.
[Dragonspine Trophy] scales very well with better gear, what's not considered in the aep calculation.
40 ap = 40 aep
325 ap for 15s/minute is 81.25 hr on average, or 137 aep.
177 aep for a karazhan geared shaman.
--
Regarding BS patterns. Nothing mentioned about that until now, wheter on blizzcon nor on any fanpage. I doubt you will see tier 4 weapons until the next 25 mans.
--
We could really need some revalued AEP's for a) t5 b) t6
Well if you want to get technical, DST technically has a proc rate of 1.7 ppm, according to wowhead and my own WWS buffs when compared to the known 2.0 ppm for mongoose. That would make the DST have an average HR of 92.08, or 141 AEP. So around 180 AEP overall?
What we really need right now are sims that are usable on platforms besides just windows ie, not written in VB or .NET, and ALL of which really need some sort of GUI or command line input that allows someone to easily change values to be used for multiple runs of the sims.
I actually started to write a Java Swing gui for Pater's sim at work the other day but then I decided it was a huge pain in the ass to basically recode a bunch of stuff to work with that.
Well i can't help you on that mission, but i can collecting some numbers for your sim.
Buffs & Consumeables
Blessing of Might, Rank 8 +220 AP
Mark of the Wild, Rank 8 +14 Strength, +14 Agility
Battleshout, Rank, Rank 8 +305 AP
Smoked Desert Dumplings, +20 Strength
Strength of Earth Totem, +99 Strength
Flask of Relentless Assault, +120 AP
Blessing of Kings, 10% Stats
Using this profile, we have
314 AP, 97 Str -> 120 Base AP
2.44% Crit, 57 Agi -> 0.16%* Basecrit
Note:
a) There is no weapon buff actually included, i first want to check my ppm of mongoose at home and want to compare it to beowulf's - since i claim it was only around 1 procc like crusader. Do you have double mongoose? Or was only one weapon equipped for testing?
Anyway, should be somewhere between 1.32% crit (1 ppm) and 2.64% crit (2 ppm).
b) Choices have been made on the values for a 2200/25/22 shaman, but i think i wouldn't differ that much, so that some of those items just drop behind all other.
c) Setbonus are ignored (5% flurry haste should beat 70 ap with ease any day, shouldn't it?)
* if i remember correclty it's higher with maxed weapon skill, will check this at home
08/18/07, 2:33 PM
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