I've done repeated tests, and going through the combatlogs, I was pretty much shocked to see that WF is actually proc'ing on about 34% of eligible hits.
This was back before I thought of EJ as my home board ;-)
Malan, I just checked through the initial post, doing a search for 34%, 35%, or 36%, and didn't see any mention. It might preempt a couple questions if you include something like:
Windfury Proc Rate: When you are wielding a two handed weapon, or are using a sword and shield, your chance to proc windfury on any landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is 20%. When you dual wield weapons, the chance on each landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is approximatedly 36%.
Yah that one slipped by me, I realized this morning we were missing that bit of info. I'll add it now.
@Drc - the 12 AP = 1DPS was proposed by Hedin, it was a result of simplifying the weapon damage formulas once Weapon Mastery was included. I removed it from the OP because it was a confusing issue. People thought it meant that every 12 AP meant their DPS should go up by 1, but the DPS was referring strictly to the weapon's physical damage per second.
Your simulation apparently does not consider this to be a factor so your results are incomplete.
True, the sim covered percentage of WFs lost due to hidden cooldown with static speeds. Storm strike was added on top of normal swings.
No cross-interactions from items and abilities with ppm, on-use, flat % proc were modeled.
There's much talk about the [Dragonstrike] and this is obviously a fantastic Shaman weapon but I'm wondering if that with the haste nerf and the Orc bonus to axes if [Wicked Edge of the Planes] isn't the better weapon for Orc Shaman? I think there was a post about this previously but I can't seem to find it and I don't recall any corroboration to that assertion.
There's much talk about the [Dragonstrike] and this is obviously a fantastic Shaman weapon but I'm wondering if that with the haste nerf and the Orc bonus to axes if [Wicked Edge of the Planes] isn't the better weapon for Orc Shaman? I think there was a post about this previously but I can't seem to find it and I don't recall any corroboration to that assertion.
that information is incorrect, it is based on Weapon skill value pre-nerf, if you read a little further down the thread that is linked in post you linked to.
The question at hand still remains, for an orc Shaman, would Dragonstrike or Wicked Edge of Planes be better? this question was not valid pre-haste nerf due to dragonstrike being much better, it is a valid question now though.
Wicked Edge of the Planes
Binds when picked up
UniqueMain Hand Axe
184 - 343 Damage Speed 2.70
(97.6 damage per second)
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Requires Master Axesmith
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 23.
Equip: Increases attack power by 48.
23 CR = 46 AEP
48 AP = 48 AEP
Wicked Edge of the Planes can be valued at 94 AEP, add the small benefit from +5 weapon skill, which I am almost sure exceeds 4 AEP, and it is a better weapon for orc shamans.
Wicked Edge of the Planes can be valued at 94 AEP, add the small benefit from +5 weapon skill, which I am almost sure exceeds 4 AEP, and it is a better weapon for orc shamans.
Afaik, the haste AEP doesnt include factors such as trinkets without internal cooldowns and certain ppm's (like mongoose). (which obviously would be extremely hard)
I wonder how the comparison would be for someone with double mongoose and a dst.
On the other hand, we still dont know almost anything about the new values/effect of weapon skill, right?
I'd suggest something closer to 2600-2700 ap, 35% crit (to approximate mongoose uptime, or lotp) 15-16% hit (around 100 rating) 8-10% haste (a few items + mongoose). It's been annoying me a bit lately that we keep referring back to baselines that just aren't very representative of good enhancement gear anymore.
To quote you, It's been annoying me a bit lately, that apparently people don't understand/read the previous pages of this thread. Asking for higher attack power won't change the factors much, since AP is comparison wise always the best attribute, since it is a fairly linear dps increase.
Obviously the values increase a bit (which is expected, since they influence values which are multplicative factors to the dps), obviously 15% +hit is not the ideal hit value, 19% +hit is closer to the ideal +hit value.
Strength with BoK is still the superior attribute, +crit following shortly behind and haste/hit having fairly identical values.
I havent come accross any extensive research pertaining weapon skill for shamans.
im sure it functions the same as any other class but a specific AEP value for 1 weapon skill for a shaman hasnt been concluded.
As you said "the haste AEP doesnt include factors such as trinkets without internal cooldowns and certain ppm's (like mongoose). (which obviously would be extremely hard)".
If you were to Average the uptime of a Dragonstrike and set it to a "permanent" haste effect, it would equivalent to about 60-70 haste rating, in our terms for valueing gear, thats between 91.2-106.4 AEP.
You claim that there is addition value for haste because it increases procs and and trinkets ithout internal cooldowns, well so does crit due to flurry.
you could be extensive and say that theoritcaly with a 33% crit rate you would be in a constant flurry state due to 1 in every 3 attacks being a crit.
My point is that extensiver theorycrafting and tests have concluded these values for items based on how that stat increases our DPS, AP = 1 AEP, Crit = 2 AEP etc...
to say that the value someone assigned to haste rating on dragonstike is to say our AEP system is wrong, it may very well be wrong, but it is the system 90%~ of this thread is based on. I only find it fit to base these weapons on that same system.
My point is that extensiver theorycrafting and tests have concluded these values for items based on how that stat increases our DPS, AP = 1 AEP, Crit = 2 AEP etc...
to say that the value someone assigned to haste rating on dragonstike is to say our AEP system is wrong, it may very well be wrong, but it is the system 90%~ of this thread is based on. I only find it fit to base these weapons on that same system.
Average AEP system is wrong. The deeper you go into theorycrafting the more you will realise this.
Here are AEP values for Tornhoof example few posts above (2500 ap, 35% crit, 15% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon):
1 AP = 1
1 Haste rating = 2.675
1 Hit rating = 1.965
1 Crit rating = 2.014
Compare it to the values from first page that people continue to use:
Haste Rating = 2.2
Crit Rating = 2
Hit Rating = 1.4
Attack Power = 1
Yo!, the values are not wrong they're just averages as you said. Being an average doesn't make it wrong. Flipping a coin 10 times produces an average of 5 heads, 5 tails. If you get 2 heads, 8 tails, that does not make the average wrong.
Tornhoof's values from a few posts ago was for a different model, he was modeling values in BT gear. The values on the front page were modeled from SSC/TK/KZ gear levels.
Yo!, the values are not wrong they're just averages as you said. Being an average doesn't make it wrong. Flipping a coin 10 times produces an average of 5 heads, 5 tails. If you get 2 heads, 8 tails, that does not make the average wrong.
Tornhoof's values from a few posts ago was for a different model, he was modeling values in BT gear. The values on the front page were modeled from SSC/TK/KZ gear levels.
The example with coins is wrong. You will not get average AEP values for the stat combo that Tornhoof posted no matter how many times you will flip a coin. SSC/TK/KZ gear levels is too wide, inside of that gear levels local AEP values are significantly different from average for most stat combos. For explanation and data proof refer to my previous posts.
Here is what should be written on first page instead of average AEP values:
"AEP is system that compares stats by assigning value to each stat that shows how much DPS will increase by increasing your stat by 1. Please notice that AEP values are not stable and may vary a lot from one stat combination to another . To get AEP values for your current/desired gear - use sim. Here is a list of stat combos with their corresponding AEP values:
Tier 4 -
Tier 5 -
Tier 6 -
Crafted with haste -
etc...
AEP system's use is further limited by non-linear cross-dependance of stats. If you to make a choice between 2 gear upgrades that benefit several stats the one better in-game may be different from the one suggested by AEP. For better grounded choice - use sim. Using average AEP values is no better than using built-in-game AEP system called "item level". "
that information is incorrect, it is based on Weapon skill value pre-nerf, if you read a little further down the thread that is linked in post you linked to.
The question at hand still remains, for an orc Shaman, would Dragonstrike or Wicked Edge of Planes be better? this question was not valid pre-haste nerf due to dragonstrike being much better, it is a valid question now though.
No, unless you will do the testing and prove the blue wrong, i will take his word on it seeing as noone else can provide some info on it.
I value axes at around 30AEP atleast, so i'd take Wicked Edge over Dragonstrike any time.
To quote you, It's been annoying me a bit lately, that apparently people don't understand/read the previous pages of this thread. Asking for higher attack power won't change the factors much, since AP is comparison wise always the best attribute, since it is a fairly linear dps increase.
Obviously the values increase a bit (which is expected, since they influence values which are multplicative factors to the dps), obviously 15% +hit is not the ideal hit value, 19% +hit is closer to the ideal +hit value.
Strength with BoK is still the superior attribute, +crit following shortly behind and haste/hit having fairly identical values.
Wouldn't it make more sense to use an equal amount of item budget as the increasing factor? As it stands there you have them lined up in the order of how much you spent on the difference, which really isn't very meaningful. By the way I wasn't suggesting that just AP be increased, I was suggesting that the baseline stats be modified to match what a shaman in T6ish gear will have, I'm sure you can see the relevance of that. Also, plugging the updated stats into Pater's sim does produce changes worth noting, if your model doesn't then we can assume one of them has gone astray.
1. I'm an enchanter and I almost have access to the +4 stats to ring, would that be better to use than +2 weapon damage?
-I figure the +4 stats is worth 4 agi * 2 + 4 str * 2.2 = 16.8 AEP, but also gives the modest benifit of the other stats being boosted
-obviously the +2 weapon damage will depend on your weapon speed. I use 2 2.6 speed, but when you count in dual mongoose, dragonspine, and 73 passive haste(6.94%) the speed becomes much lower. With just flurry and passive haste my weapon speed is 1.84
-it appears that on the character sheet it shows the +2 weapon damage being applied to both hands, and isn't affected by the offhand penalty.
-given the above, +2 weapon damage should be +2 weapon damage * 2 weapons / 1.87 speed = 2.139 dps
+2 weapon damage > +4 stats
2. WorldofRaids says that on the PTR haste for melee has changed from 10.5 haste rating per 1% to 15.7 haste rating per 1%. What would be the new AEP value of haste?
-On my pawn string I had haste rated at 2
-I noticed the link in this thread rating it at 2.22
-so the new rating would be (10.5 / 15.7) * old rating right? so 1.48 if its rated at 2.22, 1.33 with my rating of 2(though I'm probably going to change that.
can someone check my math on this? am I calculating #1 and #2 correctly?
Yo already rewrote my DPS values into AEP, I prefer DPS values over AEP because you can convert them to whatever equivalency model you like and especially compare them to other results from other models.
Another benifit of the 1 second off your shock cooldown is that you should never run(not counting lag) run into the problem of having both your shock cooldown and stormstrike cooldown up at the same time.(currently when this happens, we stormstrike which triggers the gcd and wastes 1.5 seconds of our shock timer), but technicly if the shocks were on a 5 second cooldown it should never overlap?
Yo, if you provide the values for some reasonable AEP steps, I'll gladly put them in a table on the first post. I'm hesitant to label them as "T4, T5, T6" etc, as that puts arbitrary limits on gear to an unexperienced shaman reading the values. (ie, they might discard huge upgrades from lower lvl zones because its not in their "tier") I think a more reasonable way of doing it is describing it in reasonable steps of AP/Crit/Hit. So a lvl 70 entry-level shaman would have X AP, a mid-level shaman would have X+A AP, and a high-level shaman would have X+B AP, etc etc.
To throw some random numbers out there, we might as an example say that an entry lvl should have 1000 AP, 20% Crit, 12% Hit, a mid level might have 2000 AP, 26% Crit, 17% Hit, so on and so forth.
To throw some random numbers out there, we might as an example say that an entry lvl should have 1000 AP, 20% Crit, 12% Hit, a mid level might have 2000 AP, 26% Crit, 17% Hit, so on and so forth.
Assuming, but should be stated, these would be Buffed Values?
I'd say, without hard numbers to back it up, going for elemental shock talents is probably worth it until about halfway through SSC in progression. At that point your melee damage will be scaling fairly rapidly. You also get far more benefits from things like increased totem range and quicker ankhs around that point with larger/longer fights.
The elemental talents are good, but currently do not scale at all with gear. So after a certain point, your elemental damage won't be scaling along with the extra damage the 3% hit gives you.
08/21/07, 8:42 AM
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