I'm willing to bet that -armor is a great stat for us. Will be nice to see some math for it.

-Armor is certainly a good stat, but I suspect its value will depend on the guild.

Do Faerie Fire and Curse of Recklessness usually get put on the boss? If not, then -armor will work out to be very useful. If so, finding the value requires more thought .

From the way armour reduction is calculated, -armour is more valuable the lower the current value is already. Unless the target has 0 armor of course.

About +hit vs. +crit/AP gearing, I'm not completely convinced of the uselessness of +hit yet. I have a Dragonstrike and either an Hourglass or a Poison Vial, which can't proc if I don't hit. The Dragonstrike proc especially, since the haste means about an extra 20% proc rate on the other trinkets. +hit also boosts WF swings, which can all proc other things too. Hit has kind of a snowball effect for me.

If an encounter is one without damage windows, I can wait till both the Dragonstrike and the Hourglass have procced before I pop trinket+Bloodlust, getting the multiplying effect for some free extra damage.

Excellent thread but I have one question. What would provide more dps to a raid, a enhancement shaman or an elemental shaman in the corresponding groups:

Enh Shaman
DPS Warrior
Feral Druid
Rogue
Rogue

or

Elemental Shaman
Shadow Priest
Warlock
Mage
Mage

I'm still convinced that the dps and buffs a Enhancement shaman brings to a raid is greater then the elemental shaman would.

From what I gather, that the enhancement shaman would provide more, especially if the warrior was arms, as windfury, strength of earth and unleashed rage would generally (dependent of the relative gear of the two groups) be a higher dps increase than wrath of air.
If the shaman was specced for totem of wrath, it would be closer.

Edit: Ah, here's the post I was thinking of, listing the benefits of an enhancement shaman:

Enhancement shaman or some other dps class?
(which is linked in the first post of the thread)

Edit2: also see this thread:
[Shaman] Group Setup
(which discussed pretty much the same thing)

Thank you for this excellent thread, helps me a lot revising my playing style.
It might have been answered fully before, but to me it still remains uncle 2.7 speed mainhand should be used if the offhand only reaches a 2.6 speed.
I myself am currently favouring the crafted tier 3 blacksmithing mace Dragonstrike as mainhand, with the gladiator mace as offhand.

Would it be better for my DPS output to replace this mainhand with a comparable 2.6 speed weapon, the new Mercylous Gladiator Axe for example?

I know that slow offhands > fast mainhands - but when it comes to the difference between 2.7 and 2.6 this might be outweight by the higher mainhand dmg, and the stats of the weapon itself.
Ive seen contradicting posts regarding this in this thread (even from the same posters ^^) so Im hoping to get some sort of final reply on this.


Besides this ssue, i might aswell ask (if it hasnt been answered already) if, playing an orc afterall, using axes is a must for me or that the advantage that comes with it (higher axeskill) is minimal and neglectable. Looking at the available arena weapons for example: wha would be best if any: axe, fist weapon or mace?


Finaly, seeing some interesting revisions regarding the HR vs CR vs AP debate, a question regarding the ideal Enhancement spec.
Judging the posts in this thread it appears to me hitrating is a bit overrated stat for shamans, being surpassed by crit and strength. As enhancement PvE shaman, there seems to be 2 options to spec: Enhancement/Resto (+3% hit, cheaper totems) or Enhancement/Elemental (Elemental devastation, faster and better shocks, Elemental focus). Ive tried both in endgame raiding and currently favour the 3% extra hit (putting me between 16 and 19.5% hit depending on the gear i use). It smehow feels better. But judging your posts, Id say going for elemental devastation would be better afterall.
Has there been any testing regarding these 2 builds? And if so: the outcome?
Now what is better?


Hoping on your hel with these 3 issues:
- Is using a 2.7 speed mh defendable if your oh is 2.6 speed.
- Does playing an orc inclines the use of axes (but the looks! the looks!)
- Is speccing into Elemental devastation better then speccing into Nature's Grace.

Thnx!

I'd also add that putting those points in the hit talents would allow you to get gear with less hit on it in the long run. As someone earlier in this thread pointed out no one has found a magic cut off point for hit, generally speaking the closer you are to the cap the better your white damage dps will do, but Crit and AP out weigh Hit for your overall DPS. As for myself, I am currently aiming for 200 hit rating. Two hundred will put me at 21.72% hit with talents, 3.78% below the cap, but still quite good. Someone else may have a different number they prefer and have additional input on it though. I would probably allow this to fluctuate up and down, as long as it didn't lower my Crit Rating and Attack Power or drop below 20% hit. Again, my personal preferences.

Edit:

Although, much of what I have been reading lately would suggest that I could drop even further then this and still be okay. Right now I am one of those people that stacked +8 Hit gems in a lot of sockets which I quickly discovered was major over kill. I am in the process of re-gemming the gear I have and collecting more Crit/AP gear to replace my insanely Hit heavy gear. Like I said above I am aiming for roughly 200 +HitRating, but may end up near the 180 +HitRating area after I play around with it some more.

Is the blacksmithing mace an exception? I've seen a lot of people using Dragonmaw as opposed to the axe equivalent. Does the proc on Dragonmaw happen enough and grant that much of a benefit to outweigh the static stats on the axe?

Ruzia, I believe that Night_Moogle's comments (a direct response to Leachim) were taken with the context that Leachim is an orc and has the +5 axe skill racial. Otherwise, axes and maces are functionally indistinguishable. Dragonmaw is certainly a very, very good enhancement main-hand.

Is it worth having 2.8 MH / 2.6 OH or shall I switch them, even if the 2.8 has better dps? Or shall I get 2.7/2.7 for better flurry uptime? In overall, what's the best setup for MH/OH?

(In other words which 2 weapons shall I get from these:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28433
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=31965
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32236
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28439
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29996
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32262
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32944 )

Those look like all really good choices... I think it would depend more on which of those you have access to.

I have access to all but I wouldn't burn all my dkp for testing purposes, so I'm asking someone who can make the theorycraft My average stats are: 1450AP 21% hit 31% crit.

After reading this thread I have gathered the materials to make a Runic Hammer for my offhand. My question is, which would be better for a mainhand with the Runic Hammer offhand. Fool's Bain or Melchazeen? I am not sure if having a faster mainhand then offhand would outweigh the nerf of having a mainhand fall below 1.5s attack speed with flurry + the improved instant attack damage from Fools bane.

Fool's Bane. You don't want a fast MH because a lower percentage of your MH swings will get a WF bonus. In rough terms, you're effectively nerfing yourself to a 10% WF proc instead of 20%. If you can get Malchazeen then you can get a Decapitator, so try for that.

Slow MH and OH always.. So between the two options presented, Fool's Bane.

We stopped doing Magtheridon before I picked up my current weapons. This is from our last kill when I was using The Decapitator and Fel Edged Battleaxe. I wasn't in charge of clicking a cube: http://www.juggernautguild.com/wws/2...314/index.html

This is from our most recent Karathress: http://www.juggernautguild.com/wws/2...128/index.html

I went with mace opposed to axe because of the uniqueness of the proc. I expected the proc to remain fairly unique (and it has). Meanwhile, the axe has vanilla DPS stats which I'd probably replace sooner or later.

I wonder if Elemental gain something from our ap. It definetly gain from our +dmg.

ok first post at this site...and I must say lots of detailed info.

I have a shammy at 40 and have been using one hand maces and axes till now.

Going dual weild and I assume that 2.7 mh and 2.x oh are the best for max proc of WF.
is there a min that x can be?
I know that with one hand I was trying several things and 2.2 one hand and WF procced more than 2.4 but that didn't mean anything. I found a 1.7 mace and it procced like crazy and with flurry I looked like a rogue.

Trying to get to Outland and after the long spell with my necro to 70 this seems like slow pain LOL

overall I am really impressed with the build but I am disappointed in bliz for not trying to mod the entire enhance tree and not just nerf.


So far in equipment still leather with 2 mail, I have mainly agl then str then stamina. In mail should I just stack str at all cost and then just take whatever is on the item or is there other stats I must have?

I think we can safely rule this one out.

question:
I use deathbringer (http://www.thottbot.com/i17068) and Mag'hari fury brand (http://www.thottbot.com/i25764) on my lvl 66 shaman.

I guess I should put deathbringer in my MH? It has a proc, is slower and has only a little bit less max dmg. Only reason why I am doubting is because mag'hari does have more max dmg and just more dps.

I'm not that sure. Elemental have both spells and autoattack. For example, scoprid poison (hunter pet skill) gain from +dmg, while hunter pets generally gain from hunter ap.

Its not that hard to test though. You just need to compare elemental dps while naked and geared.