I'm just starting kara (and am not visiting it that often, since i'm more a casual player), but my unbuffed stats are now (and only using one kara item, [Big Bad Wolf's Paw]): 1248 AP
218 hit rating
26.15% crit
I think i don't have very much pre-kara upgrades available, maybe a few heroic items and something like the trinket buyable by badges... (or pvp gear, but not pvp-ing)
Oh, and even while not really raiding, i really love this thread. It's helping me a lot! Helps me to decide which item i want to upgrade, and how to maximize dps.
Just curious, but has there been any discussion about using flametongue or frostbrand in the offhand over windfury after 2.3?
I'd imagine since they're adding a talent to increase spell damage by 30% of our Attack Power that those two imbues might have some sort of potential for enhancement? I'm not sure myself since i don't know the numbers behind how the enchants would scale and match up with the spell damage we would have, and of course compare to windfury imbued on the OH.
So, anyone looked into it?
Last edited by Aikillju : 08/23/07 at 4:51 AM.
Reason: Fixed a spelling mistake
I think the BT/Hyjal endgame values are unattainable, but the rest look close. A lot of the gain in stats has been due to procs. IE dragonspine, ashtongue, and eventually hyjal melee ring.
Off the top of my head rounded up to 50 ap/1% crit,hit,haste
->Kara I had 1250 ap/200 hit/22% crit/0% haste
->SSC/TK 1400 ap/200 hit/25% crit/0% haste and dragonspine trophy
->Now I have 1500 ap/ 200 hit/ 29% crit/7% haste and dragonspine + ashtonge trinket procs
->If I got everything I wanted right now 1600 ap/180 hit/30% crit/10% haste and dragonspine + ashtonge + hyjal exalted ring procs
Unbuffed im sat at 1622/161/~30%/5.90% Haste
If I was to get the items i'm after, I would sacrifice all the haste items (pending nerf) in favour of the increased stats on other items. I did not consider the haste when I wrote the values you quoted.
Doesn't that kind of suggest that +hit would be undervalued by your sim then?
Well no, apparently you don't miss the blastend lands mobs with around 15-16% hit anymore, so the value of +hit can not be evaluated on these mobs. On the other hand, since you usually attack from the front, the attacktable gets parry, which isn't handled in my model at all. Since I still get parries once in awhile, these aren't fully mitigated (if at all) by weaponskill, my crit chance does not increase much (if at all), dodge gets reduced.
I think parry&dodge combined are around 5% for this mob, so with my original 19% +hit gear i still miss 5% of my swings (ignoring the parry speedup). This is atleast 5% less than against a lvl 73 mob from behind (5% miss from dw atleast + 5% from dodge).
I think it should be higher than 5% on the blasted lands mobs tbh, but they might have more armor than a sundered boss mob.
For real boss mob action, I would always remove another 10-15% from the output of my model (besides the 15% armor already accounted for) to cover for totem twisting, movement etc. That does not affect attribute comparisons with AEP or similar methods though.
Or you could flat out just tell him the answer he's looking for.
If you are reading this for the first time, please read the entire first post before posting questions. Almost every question that's been asked recently has been answered in this post. Nobody here has any interest in perusing your armory and two dozen WWS parses just to tell you the same information that is posted below.
and from the forum rules for you:
Don't troll. - If all you're doing is trying to irk someone's taters, you're going to get banned lickety split. Trust me.
Yep. Well, kind of. We know that the values are raised to the power of 1.5 when calculating item level. So using that theory we could say 20 STR would be 2^1.5 = 2.8 times as valuable as 10 STR. We know that's not the case, so we should be careful in using this information to determine values for items or stats. These figures are what Blizzard thinks the relative values of these stats should be across all classes, but not what they actually are across any one specific class/spec combination.
The formula is according to Formulas:Item Values - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki that you say are confirmed by blizz:
Values are multiplied by the stat mod and taken to the 1.5 power. These new values are summed up and taken to the (2/3) power.
local STR = { value = 10, mod = 1 };
print( math.pow(math.pow((STR.value*STR.mod), 1.5), (2/3)) ); -- 10
STR.value = 20;
print( math.pow(math.pow((STR.value*STR.mod), 1.5), (2/3)) ); -- 20
Edit: Removed C# escape codes and replaced them with lua escape codes, soz
Last edited by Tristan : 08/23/07 at 9:09 AM.
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I find the values for entry level BT/Hyjal to be kinda low actually, for unbuffed stats.
My guild have 6/6 SSC and 3/4 TK, and I'm already at 1520AP, 29.16% Crit and 223 Hit rating. And I still have some uppgrades to get from those instances aswell :P
So my estimates for BT/Hyjal entry would be like 1600/30/200, or something similiar, but without the haste.
Oh, and this is a really informative thread, so please, continue with all the good work, so that everyone that doesent have your impressive skills in math / programming can atleast get a little more understanding on how everything works.
I find the values for entry level BT/Hyjal to be kinda low actually, for unbuffed stats.
My guild have 6/6 SSC and 3/4 TK, and I'm already at 1520AP, 29.16% Crit and 223 Hit rating. And I still have some uppgrades to get from those instances aswell :P
So my estimates for BT/Hyjal entry would be like 1600/30/200, or something similiar, but without the haste.
Oh, and this is a really informative thread, so please, continue with all the good work, so that everyone that doesent have your impressive skills in math / programming can atleast get a little more understanding on how everything works.
Like I said, they were guesses from memory of roughly what I had.
I also never picked up any T5, you have all the items from SSC/TK I never got, baring in mind we did so few clears (I think I have been to 3 Kaelthas kills and missed maybe 2 or 3) before entering BT/Hyjal. And you mention you have no haste, but haste is high on the item budget, so 5% haste would decrease your other stats by a considerable amount.
One other thing to note, you have very low HP, when I was at your level I valued stam quite high, and rightfully so in my opinion.
Even fully raid buffed you have what, about 8.5-9.0k?
On our first venture into BT i had 10.4k which is very useful for Najentus amongst other things.
Originally Posted by Malan
Blah. We're at the point that I can only remove text from the OP in order to add new stuff. =\
Like I suggested earlier in this thread, ask one of the mods to add a single post directly below the first or create a new topic then get them to merge the post in there.
Its definitely possible in some forums so I cant see why it wouldn't be in this one.
Yah I'll ask Boe about it. The Wiki is going to be a bit slower of a project than I initially expected, I had been holding off to see if I could just convert this into a full article.
We've added over 20 pages of discussion in the last 2 weeks, this is getting hard to find things. I wish this forum had a 'tag' mechanism so I could tag posts that I needed to reference later.
I've turned on the GoogleNotebook firefox plugin in the meantime and I'm going to start collecting important posts in it. Then I can whip it out when someone says something stupid.
I don't know if this thread is still alive and under discussion but I think the following is wrong:
MainHand Damage
(<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110%
MainHand WF
(<Weapon Damage>+(AP+WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110%*140%
OffHand Damage
(<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)/2*110%
OffHand WF 2.1 patch
((<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)/2+(WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>))*110%*140%
Correct me if I am wrong but I think the 140% comes from the WindFury 20% proc statistics: in average, we need 5 strikes to proc the WF which gives 2 free additional strikes, so by average its (5 + 2)/5 = 1.4 = 140%
This is correct for the average number of strike but not for the damage calculation. Indeed only the two addtional stikes benefit from the WF attack power bonus. So the correct formula should be :
MainHand WF =
MainHand Damage + (<Weapon Damage>+(AP+WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110% *40%
Nope. Contratry to what you would expect the improved wf talent in the enhance tree improves the overall damage of wf swings by 40%, not the AP contribution.
This is why you will notice that your maximum wf crit is far in excess of your maximum white crit, much more than the AP could provide. I wf crit one of those little channeler guys on akama last night for 3180 and I had an agi pot, not an ap flask. Such a number is nowhere near attainable without that 40% modifier.
I am sure this talent is a bug. I mean wf is roughly 35% of my damage on most bosses so those 3 talent points are each worth almost 5% of my overall dps which is far too powerful.
Just like dual windfury procing ~35% is doubtlessly a bug.
The entire shaman combat system is a complete mess. The problem is that the whole thing was balanced with these bugs in place. If the bugs get fixed the whole thing collapses.
Hmm, regarding my HP:pool, I actually have roughly 9.3k fully raidbuffed, and I can always use Major fort and STA food aswell to boost it to 9750:ish. Though I never do it, since I find 9.3k to be sufficient for atleast SSC and TK.
I dont really know anything about the HP requirements in Hyjal / BT though, so when I get there, I might have to exchange a couple of gems / pieces of eq I guess
And well, yes, I know you had 5% haste on your Hyjal / BT entry level, but with the incoming haste nerf, I dont really think it's worth to go for the random pieces with passive haste anymore. That's why I calculated my entrylevel withouth any haste at all.
Although I might be wrong XD I'm kinda blindly following the AEP values atm, which will put haste to roughly the same lvl as Hit Rating, which is the least valuable / ItemLevel for us, so to say.
And I know that the AEP points given in the beginning of this thread are supposed to be used for a bit less geared shamans than myself, but I still find them to atleast show me some items which are clear uppgrades.
Though I might miss better uppgrades due to not modifying my values
Stigmata's Guestimates:
Kara 1300/75Hit/20%Crit/0% Haste
SSC/TK 1400/120Hit/24%Crit/0%Haste
I'm currently 2/5 SSC in progression and I clock at 1150ish AP, 109 Hit, 26ish% crit, unbuffed. I can trade 40ish AP for 2% haste (Crystalweave Cape and a switch of gloves.) Are these Guestimates what you had during those tiers of progressions... or values to be aimed at?
You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone.
Dragonmaw is very good and I am quite jealous of those who have it.
Also from above Stig made a point that I think was lost. Since Hyjal and BT were released I think you will find very few people who really come close to a full T5 level set.
It does not make much sense, but Kael really is the most challenging encounter in the game. Any guild that can kill Kael will kill Illidan and there is really no reason to hang out in SSC and TK once Hyjal and BT are available. I think we have done 3 Kael kills and then never went back.
K... this might be covered somewhere in here, but this thread is so deep I'm not seeing it.
I know this *isn't* optimal... but I need advice on what to enchant a 2H with.
I'm using Gorehowl right now for dps, and don't know which enchant would be best for it... Should I pony up for mongoose, or just throw savagery on it for cheap since it's a 2hander?
Basically our guild's geared enh shaman transferred out to join RL friends, so I stepped onto an old unused character to fill the gap. The char only had lvl 60 HWL axes for weapons. I have yet to get a MH drop... and OH availability is just a joke.. We clear Kara, Gruul, Void Reaver, and are under 10% on Lurker, he'll prolly go down this week... But yeah, my weapon choices are middlin.. I have a few weeks to go before I get an arena offhand, and maybe another week or two til I get a better MH even. So I'm just going to use Gorehowl as filler, and then for PvP situations on into the future.
What's the best way to go for this enchant? Is mongoose worth it in an arena situation? Or should I just save my money and go with savagery, and save Mongoose cash/mats for my DW weapons?
And is Gorehowl really a bad filler option? I don't see how it couldn't be better than weak DW weapons... but I haven't had a chance to raid with it since I picked it up.
08/23/07, 4:09 AM
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