My 2 cents about the stats :

Currently farming Gruul, working on Magtheridon and Void Reaver
1330 AP
163 hit
29.15% crit

I am full T4-like stuff, with the LW set as well as the BoP craftable mail boots from TK.

I'd enchant it with 70AP. Mongoose is pretty expensive and works best on two weapons. That being said: Do not use a two hander for enhancement pve. All of our talents and buffs are designed around DW. UR and flurry uptime take a huge hit with a 2hander, and that decreases damage for your whole group.

Gearwise, there's a lot you can do to upgrade. If you have the time and money, I'd suggest farming up a fel edged battle axe for MH and the Heroic Underbog offhand. I'd also suggest hitting up heroics for key upgrades like the WF totem(Mana Tombs) and bloodlust broach(badges). If you have atlas and statbuster, take some time to look through instances and find which pieces of gear are easily attainable upgrades.

PS. Your crit is really really low. At the minimum you'd want it high enough so that UR has a good chance of proccing within 10 seconds.

Edit: Oh, you might want to hold to the HWL axe for an offhand till you get something better.

Khatib if you are acting as an emergency fill in then they are really only bringing you for improved totems and unleashed rage which you will have a hard time providing with a 2 hander.

The old HWL is a good enough offhand and just take an evening to go plow regular arcatraz and get the 2.6 speed fist weapon (or some other weapon of your choice) and you will be able to atleast buff your group properly while you close the gear gap over time.

On a side not, it is possible to obtain 1750 AP, 32% Crit, 11% Haste and 20% +hit unbuffed (which is pretty much the maximum attainable gear, including Cursed Vision of Sargeras and Midnight Chesguard)

Good news, Boe increased the size limit on the OP. Crisis averted.

I thought all Shaman nowadays agree that ~100 HR is the way to go? With a HR weigthing only 0.25 you will see only a few items on top of the lists with HR on them - but that's the trick. These few items provide enough HR to stay at ~100 HR and above.
I hope my point is understandable :/

That's not quite it. The issue was that many of us were stacking +Hit to the exclusion of AP/Crit during KZ and early SSC, when AP/Crit would have benefited us much much more. Basically don't use Hit gems, don't sacrifice Crit or AP just to gain more Hit. That's all it really boils down to. Hit Rating is still important, and I'd take all I could get as long as it didn't mean sacrificing other stats at the same time.

Depends on your gear, if you get to 1700AP and 30% crit you are gonna want alot of hit.

Hello I have a problem that I feel you would be able to resolve. In our gruild we have a shamy who refuses to believe that WF>GoA. I know you have posted this many times and in there 70ish pages of theory theres plenty of proof but hes well....he wont read it. So I need an answer directed at him so he cant ignore it. Anyway after bringing this up with him he came up with this:

"Some calculation would be nice instead of pulling it out the air somewhere, it would also mean that without shaman dropping a totem for you, you would drop to the lowest spots dps wise.
The exact wf damage can;t even be read from the stats, but you can do a small gues, taking that you rogues do 75% damage with your offhand, and wf can only proc on white damage (will be atleast in 2.2, not sure now in 2.1). If you look at the stats normal white hits is around 55% average of your total damage (already including the wf you had yesterday, but ok). So 31% of the your damage is done by your main hand (55% / 1.75 = 31.4%), that damage will get the 20% boost of WF, giving your 6.3% extra total damage. Saying you did 800 dps it would boost your dps to 850 a nice 50 dps boost. Anyway if would drop goa you would gain something like 2.x% crit 88 ap and you could use a sharpening stone/poison or flametongue totem. The ap would only give 12 more dps and 2% crit another 16, FT totem should give another 20 dps if used. Also my unreleashed rage would proc more, give you 10% attack power extra more often. So the difference you are quoting are completly wrong, and btw i moved myself to the other group yesterday, was sick of the whining."

All I ask is for some simple numbers to back up WF>GoA. If this is pointless spam and just delete the post.

Edit: Ah yeh group setup is nearly allways 3 rogues and a warior along side the shamy. (4 rogues in the guild 1dagger, 2 sword and one fist)

Here's the best way of dealing with a shaman like that. Stop bothering trying to convince him (unless he's the guild leader/officer, which case this doesn't work). The guy is basically doing this to justify why he should get the totem that he wants. You rogues and the warrior need to bitch non-stop to the raid leader and guild leader about it until someone in a leadership position tells him to drop the correct totems or not to raid. Bottom line is that he's wrong, he doesn't understand the mechanics he's talking about.

This is pretty funny because unless his buffed crit rate is lower than 20%, this shouldn't even be a consideration.

Well he is an officer:P So chalenging him like this may not have been the greatest idea. Anyway ill try and direct him to this post.

I guess what he meant is with Dual wield spec, you get to increase the offhand weapon dmg to be 0.75 multiplier of MH instead of 0.5. So a combat rogue will have 1.75 as a multiplier.
Therefore 55%/1.75 = 31.4% as his overall white dmg done by mainhand.

I've had it pointed out that I may be reading his statement incorrectly, but I'm not so sure. Either way, he's still wrong.

No, he's saying 55% of total dmg is white dmg - which is comprised of 1*MH + .75*MH = TotalWhite (which isn't strictly true for sword spec rogues) - this assumes exactly equal DPS weapons, but for rough calcs its close enough. So he can take TotalWhite = 1.75*MH, then TotalWhite (55%) / 1.75 = MH contribution to damage.

But yeah, his math is a bit off since it doesn't value extra rage for warriors, extra procs of powerful items like DST, and if his UR uptime isn't damn near 100% then what the hell kinda gear is he wearing?

The 31% number is "total contribution to overall damage by mainhand white attacks" remove that 31% from the 55% total white attack damage and his math is saying that 24% of total damage comes from offhand white attacks.


And I'm just clarifying the 75% thing - WF is still better than GoA - this guy's just being selfish. Trust me, as a raid leader, I'd prefer if GoA was better - I want to down bosses, not top damage meters.

so what are the new values for the haste rating nerf? would str be better then?

They're equal (with kings) right now, and Haste is getting a > 0% nerf. I'm going to hope that's enough clues.

Part of the original post had numbers with "unideal" group makeups comparing WF to GoA (3 dagger rogues and a dw warrior I think?) and it came out to be something like 2xx raid dps with GoA vs 5xx with WF. As far as the totem nerf goes; well it isn't that big of a deal for rogues and fury warriors. Glancing at a WWS I'm seeing 417 white swings to 59 specials, take out the 28 wf procs, 389 white(66% oh hits for simplicity sake)=128, so you're losing around 30% of your possible WF procs taking out the MH hits. I guess the number was a bit bigger than what I had originally thought it was, with 60 more attacks you're looking at 12 more WF procs in a perfect world and that's near a 50? dps loss? I suppose the totems are a bit closer now, but even assuming the 200 goa vs 500 wf values you're looking at 200 vs 300 still.

He sounds like he's pretty ignorant about the class and probably a crotchety old man.

As far as the 55%/1.75=31.4% it seems correct, just worded poorly. 31.4 done by MH and 23.6 done by offhand.

edited for poor math

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the nerf was almost purely to kill the viability of MS warriors in PvE. Everything else was a side effect that they were able to live with as it had the added benefit of tightening up the difference in DPS classes a bit more. I'm finally seeing some die hard raiding MS warriors spec to DW Fury now, which is what Blizzard has been pushing for warrior PvE dps for a while.

Yah I removed it after the WF totem change because it was misleading, need to link to a better discussion of it now. There's some talk of it in the WF Totem Change thread, but its broken up in various places and nobody really did the math for a warrior, only for rogues.

Kaay,

If 99% of the shaman community know and say WF is better...then i'm about 99% sure they are right. Sadly if he doesn't get that he's a waste of a raid spot for someone willing to work with a team to raid.

From WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes

Guess it's official now, I don't feel like I got fucked at all.

This was posted on page 69 already. ( http://elitistjerks.com/456866-post1689.html )