I built a basic spreadsheet to help me see the AEP for items, but, how do you factor in procs? I.E. Dragonstrike = 212haste rating*1.48 = 313.76aep, right? The issue with that - it's not constant. If you use the search tool (NO WAY!) there are several references to Dragonstrike being 96AEP... how are people getting this? Dragonstrike has a rough 26.6% proc from a 33.3 minute testing (this factors in some where but not sure where).
Everything else is simple for getting AEP, straight constant numbers are simple but procs are where I'm getting confused. If anyone could help, that would be great. Please and thank you.
You get those values by factoring in the proc uptime, there's an older thread with some equations for it if you search for "uptime".
Now, back to the awesome Dragonstrike Vs. Wicked Edge of the Planar:
If Dragonstrike is really ~25% proc rate, wouldn't it be better to push for Wicked Edge instead? It being almost 11aep more. Granted, the proc on DS is insane and would increase white damage....Should I just assume 30% proc rate as Rava explained from here on out?
Now, back to the awesome Dragonstrike Vs. Wicked Edge of the Planar:
If Dragonstrike is really ~25% proc rate, wouldn't it be better to push for Wicked Edge instead? It being almost 11aep more. Granted, the proc on DS is insane and would increase white damage....Should I just assume 30% proc rate as Rava explained from here on out?
I wouldn't assume 30%, I think that is just what original testing showed. If someone actually tested for 33 mins and saw a 26.6% uptime that's about as accurate as you can get. As far as the Wicked Edge vs Dragonstrike argument, I really don't know. The haste nerf sucks and I'm probably going to be dropping Dragonstrike if/when they buff BT weapons as they did SSC/TK.
Now, back to the awesome Dragonstrike Vs. Wicked Edge of the Planar:
If Dragonstrike is really ~25% proc rate, wouldn't it be better to push for Wicked Edge instead? It being almost 11aep more. Granted, the proc on DS is insane and would increase white damage....Should I just assume 30% proc rate as Rava explained from here on out?
It is not proc rate, it is proc upkeep time. Proc rate for Dragonstrike is 9% = 2ppm*2.7speed/60sec. AEP value of Dragonstrike was calculated as (2ppm * 10 sec / 60) * 313.7AEP = 33.3% upkeep time * 313.7 AEP = 105 AEP but this is not taking overlapping procs into account. It was assumed that overlapping leads to 30.6% upkeep time that leads to 30.6%*313.7 = 96 AEP. If you have 26.6% upkeep time - it becomes 83 AEP for you. If you will put on some haste items the upkeep time will be higher and AEP value of the item for you will be higher.
This happens to all items with procs - their AEP value depends on how much haste you have. Similarly, AEP value for 1 haste rating depends on how many items with procs you have.
So, in the situation of not having any Haste items to be able to increase the upkeep percentage, would it be better off going with the Wicked Edge?
My situation - working towards either Planar Edge or Dragonstrike. The equipment on my toon consists of Greens/Kara/high end blues. I may never see Hyjal or BT, but getting vortexes shouldn't be an issue in the coming month(s). Trying to break down each of the main blacksmithing weapons to see which is better overall.
Unless your weapon speed + passive haste gear + flurry falls between that theoretical dps loss range, I wouldnt be worried.
Of course you can speed yourself up with temporary buffs to that range and even way beyond, fastest i have seen my 2.60 weapons hit was 0.78, (I´m troll with berserking), but its just temporary buffs and that gap is way too narrow to worry about with temporary buffs.
When I get my double mongoose up with the Haste proc off DST combined with flurry I sit on like 1.41 atk speed :o
I have been trying to determine whether stacking haste + armor reduction is the way to go once you hit 33% crit unbuffed... trying to formulate an excel sheet but I am finding it terribly random for each boss encounter.
The main Problems is that each creature will have it's own armor value in which ignore armor (IA) & we won't know the exact armor value until extensive formulating of the each creatures armor type.
I will post more once I did finishing my research (1 week off college = More time spent theroycrafting).
Main concern is... Is it worth it stacking haste & armor reduction after reaching a certain amount of AP/Crit?
Main concern is... Is it worth it stacking haste & armor reduction after reaching a certain amount of AP/Crit?
Haste is definitely worth increasing if you already have a lot of AP/Crit. Refer to cube/square examples several pages back. Armor reduction - well, it depends not only on what stats you already have but what boss you are fighting against.
Here's a thought on how to calculate a value (something we can at least input into Pawn) for -armor on items. We all know that the actual value of the stat scales higher as the base armor of the boss/mob in question decreases. We could just find the lowest possible value of the stat (i.e. highest armor bosses/mobs) and just use that, at least to give us a baseline for consideration of how good the stat is. Thoughts?
First time post here, I was wondering what the benefits / mechanics behind using two 2.8 speed weapons would be, I looked through the topic for a while, but after spending some time doing so, I realized the chances of me finding what I was looking for was going to be a needle in a haystack.
I've seen a lot of information regarding the use of a 2.6 - 2.8 speed weapon together in different combinations; but haven't seen much regarding the use of two weapons of identical speed, to be more specific, Using x2 Syphon of the Nethrezim vrs. Using 1 and a Rising Tide together.
It would make a lot of sense, the ability to get both weapons to be as close to 1.5 speed using haste, the extra flurry tick from Identical Speed, and the maximum damage from Stormstrike, but I was wondering, all the posts I've seen that mention using identical speed weapons never have it as their focal point, I was wondering if their was a conversation on it regarding shamans specifically (I read the flurry post, but this forum hasn't talked about it at all from what I've seen) Maybe I'm missing something obvious, are there any hidden side effects to using them as opposed to mixing weapon speeds (Less Mainhand flurry consumption from using a faster weapon, wf desyncing your weapon speeds?)
I guess what I'm asking is, between another syphon or rising tide, which should I pick up as my next weapon and why, any help with this is extremely appreciated.
Shikka asked this question in post #914, but it only had one or two directly corresponding replies, and I didn't grasp why matching weapon speed seemed like such a bad idea.
So, in the situation of not having any Haste items to be able to increase the upkeep percentage, would it be better off going with the Wicked Edge?
My situation - working towards either Planar Edge or Dragonstrike. The equipment on my toon consists of Greens/Kara/high end blues. I may never see Hyjal or BT, but getting vortexes shouldn't be an issue in the coming month(s). Trying to break down each of the main blacksmithing weapons to see which is better overall.
For my decision, I looked at the alternatives to each weapon. Dragonstrike's haste proc is fairly unique, with no other available mainhand for Shaman. Meanwhile, Wicked Edge of the Planes has competition from any weapon with comparable stats/DPS, such as a Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver.
I'm not sure how much the proc will be worth after the haste nerf, but I've found the maces to be superior to weapons with higher DPS/better stats (memory's a bit hazy, but I think it was [Drakefist Hammer] vs. [Fool's Bane]).
Also... I love procs. When I pop Bloodlust, I'm almost guaranteed to get my mace to proc, which almost guarantees my DST to proc, which almost guarantees double Mongoose. Then I trinket, pop a trinket, haste pot and get a friendly LWer to pop drums of battle, all of which get additional gains from being active at the same time.
has anyone done any calculations for the upcoming haste nerf as far as trinkets go?
Our guild is currently progressing through SSC/TE (Al'ar first kill tonight!) and i'm wondering if I should still be saving DKP for that possible Dragonspine drop or if I can move onto Tsunami Talisman.
Also wondering where [Dragonstrike] will rank after the haste change, as well as OH comparison's since all of SSC/TE weapons are getting buffed soon as well.
I was thinking about how the haste nerf will affect my weapon choice, There is no way im switching to axes for wicked edge, for a start I cant be arsed to do 10 heroics for badges, then there is the little matter of going into ssc/tk which there is no point to do so for my guild.
So im at the point where I think perhaps I would change my MH (Dragonstrike) to a 2nd syphon if it ever drops. But givent he lack of stats on the syphon I thought about Rising tides, how does the difference between top end range (313 vs 365) and the 0.2 slower speed compare.
The stats on rising tide are obviously very nice and would give me an extra 42 hit and 88 if I was duel wielding them, with the loss of the syphon proc (pretty poor imo) and whatever the difference is between the speeds and top end.
I suppose i'm the equivalent of a long time listener, first time caller here
I've been keenly reading the discussion of relative weapon speeds for shamans, which has really helped push my DPS up. Now, i've run into a specific issue which confuses me, as I'm bloody awful at maths.
My guild's got to the point where Khara is a farm-fest, where the people going are only looking for maybe one item from one boss. Thus, the other night, despite a total lack of Fool's bane and Decapitator, I walked away with Malchazeen in my trousers. Exciting. A 91 DPS dagger with a 1.8 speed. You'd think that would be good for a Melee DPS person. But, as I read the forum, apparently not.
My question is this - if i put Malchazeen in my MH, and my Boggspine knuckles in my OH, will my DPS go up from my current MH - Stormreaver warblades?
The whole weapon speed thing leaves me deeply confused I must say. As far as i can tell slow = best for OH & MH. But will a fast MH be per se bad? Especially if it's replacing a blue with 15 less DPS?
Also, i'm on the cusp of getting a Runic Hammer - Would Malchazeen MH/Runic Hammer OH be better than Malchazeen/Boggspine or Stormreaver/Boggspine?
Btw, thanks in general for all the hard work on the maths guys. You've done a great job of not only doing the calculations, but also making them easily accesible to the layman. You've enabled me to beat the two other shamans in my guild who insisted flametounge, GoA and + hit were all the best for shamans. They can't argue with being lower down the DPS charts time and again.
i assume what you mean is the phrase in the first post; "As noted above, damage from WF and SS are not normalized to weapon speed. Slow/Slow will always outperform any combination of Fast/Slow, Slow/Fast, or Fast/Fast when both weapons are imbued with WF."
Presumably, "always" means "always" but it's so incredibly counter-intiutive that I thought I would ask the question. If it does mean "always" then is a 2.6 green better than an epic 1.8 as a Main Hand? for that matter, if "always" means "always" is a 2.6 speed grey mainhand I buy from an anvilmar vendor better than an epic dagger? The posts are very clear on OHs - but MH is a little opaque.
I understand that a slow MH is better for a variety of reasons; Yes, i did read carefully before posting. My question was - in a situation with a 20 DPS difference between a fast weapon and a slow weapon, is it still advantageous to use the slow weapon?
I know this is true for OH, having read the posts but what about for MH? An advanced search for topics on MH speed on the thread reveals little. I'm only asking because I think it's something that is genuinely confusing.
@Strawberry - hold onto the Malchazeen in your bank until the spell dmg talent change comes in 2.3, then if you don't have a better OH by then you can put FT on the dagger and use it. By using the dagger MH you'd gain 15 Weapon DPS, but you'd lose a lot of instant attack damage from WF and SS.
You can always do a 5-10 min test on the blasted lands mobs with each combination to check, I'd put my money on the 2.6 still outpacing the malchazeen though.
I'll do a test and we'll see. Part of me was hoping someone had already done the legwork, but, meh, i'll have to do some work rather than just be told i'm wrong
Two things -
1.) Is there any reason to test specifically in the blasted lands? Or is that just a long standing joke?
2.)I'll be pleasantly surprised it if the shaman spell damage talent appears in it's hinted at form, but by then a hotfix will mean we'll probably be buffing melee holy priests with GoA and arguing that sentry totem has better synergy with holy fire
The mobs in the blasted lands near the crystals cannot be killed, thats why we use them. Other option is to get a tank and a healer and use a Halaani guard, but that's a bit risky (PvP) and you need to have some nice people willing to help you out.
Is it alright to ask gear questions in this thread? It's possibly the best place to ask since you will all know better than anywhere else, but I think it's just for theorycrafting the mechanics and such?
Anyway this is my dilemma.. our guild has 6/6 SSC and 3/4 TK down, and all the new gear options I am having open to me are an increase in AP and Crit, but less or no +hit at all. My current stats are as follows: AP:1478, Hit Rating: 155, Crit: 29.56%.
I picked up Boots of Effortless Striking, which gives me an increase of +8 AP, and 0.34% crit, but I completely lose out on 1.08% Hit rating from my Fiend Slayer Boots.
What's the best to use? There's a few things like this where I gain a small amount of AP and Crit, but lose a lot of hit, basically how much hit can I drop and when does the added AP/Crit outweigh the loss of hit?
Another example of this would be Ancestral Ring of Conquest, replacing my Violet Signet I will gain +8 AP and 0.84% crit, but a loss of 1.00% Hit, I really hope someone can help me out here..thank you.
Basically, if you use a faster weapon, your extra attacks from WF are weaker. With no cooldown, you would get more procs to compensate. However, with a cooldown, you're basically getting a few more procs that are much weaker. The exact dps point a fast weapon would be better is unknown, especially since calculating the effect of the cooldown is...hard.
The OH thing was mentioned because there are already a lot of choices for the MH, but an uninformed shaman might want to use Malchazeen because it feels like an upgrade when OH drops aren't coming from heroics.
08/30/07, 6:05 PM
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