Yeah, but how much better is T6 in terms of other stat increases as compared to T5? You also need to multiply by the level of Flurry uptime (unless you have 100%, you won't be hasted 5% more constantly). You also need to take into account the improved AP, hit, and crit that T6 gives over T5.

However, realistically, in this case, your numbers are going to be so different with each set, that I would start to question how effective an AEP calculation would be for you. I'd probably try running Tornhoof's sim on the two sets and seeing what DPS each gets you (assuming his sim can account for 4-piece T5 and 4-piece T6).

Overall, though, I think this is a moot question... who is honestly going to collect 4-piece T5 or 4-piece T6 with all the great off-set loot? You can certainly build a set that's 100 AEP better than T6 by including some offset items so the bonus is not worth it to me. Until Blizzard pulls their heads out of their asses and put armor ignore like Rogues and Warriors instead of MP5, anyway; it's no coincidence that the only really good piece of T6 is the gloves which have no MP5. And for that matter, what's up with the horrible 2-piece set bonus and no red sockets?

Compare to rogues:
(2) Set: Increases the haste from your Slice and Dice ability by 5%.
(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Backstab, Sinister Strike, Mutilate, and Hemorrhage abilities by 6%.
Druids:
(2) Set: Reduces the energy cost of your Mangle ability in Cat Form by 5 and increases the threat generated by your Mangle ability in Bear Form by 15%.
(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Rip, Swipe, and Ferocious Bite abilities by 15%.

OK, now I'm getting a little bit too high on the podium/QQ train. Sorry.

Except not really. Look at Stigmata's WWS, with ~30% unbuffed crit(not sure what neck he uses) + lotp flurry was reapplied nine times, meaning that he had at least 9 hits without flurry. 9/85 = 10.6% downtime with 35 crit. The value with his gear would be at best around 104, but quite lower for well, anyone using t5.

You can use either the PTR value of 15.76 haste = 1% and the value of 1.48 AEP, or the live value of 10.5 haste = 1% and the value of 2.22 AEP.

Thank you so much. I looked past the 15.76rating = 1% in this thread. Updated my spreadsheet. ^_^

Yeah the current T6 set bonuses are very very weak, and the set is kinda crappy itemised in terms of stats/sockets.

Noticed the resto t6 set has been changed today on PTR so hopefully maybe enhance one will too.

Out of interest, what are the "better" non set people are using then because personally I think the mail with haste on is very crappy and seriously hunter itemised (agility + AP), which leaves leather and bah rogues cry :/

Your rogues shouldn't cry, considering they are getting your WF totem and/or GoA, UR and SoE. Cursed Vision of Sargeras (rogue), Shoulders of the Hidden Predator (hunter), Midnight Chestguard (rogue), and Bow-Stitched Leggings (hunter) would be the choices I'd replace 4/5 of T6 with:
lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
I haven't done the math on the haste items post-PTR (Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes, Fists of Mukoa) but it's possible that they are better than the above.
There are also the armor ignore items to consider, jury is still out on this mathematically so I'm not sure where to place them in the grand scheme of things.

If they are genuinely upset, gently remind them that they have well-itemized T6 and we don't.

Looking at the Tiered gear, it's fairly obvious to me that Blizz did not expect the Shaman class to be played the way most of us are playing it. They see us as standing up front with our totems, doing some decent damage but taking time out to splash the raid. In short, they think we're using more spells and thus need more mp5, free healing waves, etc.

And I'd wager most enhancers are playing that way (the ones who haven't read this thread, anyway). That used to be my play style -- prior to BC & DW, I used to be about even between Enh and Resto. My damage was minuscule, but measured in terms of Damage Given + Damage Taken + Healing Done I was highly effective.

Of course, now fights have gotten so technical and wipes so easy to trigger that being a hybrid isn't as important as being able to effectively play your role. And being able to give Rogues a run for their money while tying together a highly effective melee group is a lot of fun. I think Bliz could stand to go to school with a really great enh. shaman and learn that hey, MP5 is great but we could use some more STR, and an instant cast heal is lovely but we'd prefer a threat reduction proc that didn't reset the swing timer.

I'll say this, though: if I were looking for a new guild, I know it'd be easier to find one in full Cyclone than in my current set, even if I'd put out more damage as a Shamrogue.

Definitely random agil pieces are better than T6. Too bad there are no equivalent gear with STR instead of so much AGI.

So, question. Has anyone come up with a definite answer for whether the Wicked Edge of the Planes is better then the Dragonstrike after the coming patch? I posted my little test, just wondering if anyone has been able to learn anything else.

Wether it's one or the other that end up being the better of the 2, I'm pretty sure it's not gonna be worth switching Blacksmithing speciality. That's also probably the underlying question: is one so much better than the other that it's worth switching? My guestimate says no.

Well I already have Blacksmithing, Im currently using the Dragonstrike. Im just wondering if I should even bother switching to Axesmith to get the Axe or just grab something like Talon of the Phoenix after its buff until I can get Syphon. As it stands right now, Im just going to grab a Talon and not bother with Axesmith.

Where would you place the armor penetration neck in comparison to, say, the heroic badge neck? I ask because I have both and they're my only two options at the moment. I'm pretty low on hit, even as far as shamans are concerned (70 hit rating), so I have been thinking of equipping the heroic badge neck in its place.

The trash neck is better than the badge one, even with low hit. The only one that's really better is the one off Supremus since it spends all of its budget on dps stats at the expense of stam.

I have a question, which is probably more directed at Sebudai than anyone else, but I'd still appreciate anyone's thoughts.

I have been taking a look at Juggernauts WWS logs, and tended to notice that your (Sebudai's) dps in general with the raid group has increased as your guild has progressed. I have also assumed that with progression comes an improvement in your gear. I find myself in similar spots on the damage meters as you were back when you were clearing SSC/TK (around 5th on Void Reaver for eg, but lower down on average probably around 8-10th) and now you're in a position where you are frequently towards the top end (top 5 usually).

My question is, do you agree with how I have interpreted this information - do you feel that your dps has also increased over time with an improvement in gear? Do other informed readers of this thread also feel that perhaps Enhancement Shaman dps increases over time because the gear scales more favourably at end game than other classes?

Put another way, do people think (as I do) that the gear increases from drops in BT and Hyjal increase an Enhancement Shamans dps more than 'equivalent' gear for a lock, or hunter does?

My guild has a spot for only 1 Enhancement shaman unfortunately, and there are two of us. So I find myself in a position where accruing DKP is quite difficult and as such I'm always last to get any kind of item, be it cross class or class specific. So I feel that I'm always lagging behind and struggling to catch up as a result. This also lends itself to people in my guild not necessarily believing that Enhancement Shaman dps is viable, considering my spots on the meters at present. My armory link should work if anyone would like to have a look (Bloodlust brooch incoming within a week or two).

We have cleared Vashj and are about to put in attempts on Kael, so my hope is that when we are all in Hyjal/BT I'll see a more favourable increase in my dps as I acquire gear from those instances.

Would Sebudai or anyone else care to share their thoughts on this matter?

Edit: Grammar.

I would say yes, at ssc gear level you might see a bit of drop in dps meters relative position that should even up in MH/BT, since you will be not aiming for T6 for a while and mail dps loot should go for you without much of a struggle.

Also, switch your relic asap! Put the most effort into manatombs, that should help with your bloodlust brooch at the same time. And why not use karazhan rep ring? Your just a bit too low on +hit. And if your are still experiencing low relative pos in dps meters, make sure that you get salve > bom > kings on you, warrior with battleshout and if possible a feral druid to the same group.

His hit rating is fine (look at Sebudai's), but he needs to ditch his chest, gloves, and belt in favor of gear without MP5, because his AP is suffering. (Hint: GO LEATHER.) The Bladefist's Breadth also really needs upgrading, at least a Bloodlust Brooch is easily attainable.

I would definitely say we scale better with gear from Kara->SSC->TK->BT than locks and mages, for a few reasons: 1) they start out with FSW or Spellfire which is comparable to T5 for the most common builds (affliction lock, fire mage); 2) there are more melee unfriendly encounters in SSC/TK and more magic unfriendly encounters in BT; 3) our class innately scales fairly well. Compared to hunters, warriors, and rogues I'm not so sure that we really scale better, though. Currently, nobody's scaling better than rogues -- though the haste nerf may mitigate this somewhat or entirely.

I don't know if we scale with gear better than other classes. If I had to guess, I'd probably say that we don't. I don't really know though.

I think when I was working through Gruul's Lair/SSC/TK my gear was of a slightly worse quality than the gear our other dps classes were using at the time. The enhancement theorycrafting was really just getting started, so for the most part I was winging it. I thought hit rating was the best stat, I was using fast weapons etc. Nowadays the quality of my gear has caught up and thanks to threads like this I have a much better idea about what I should be doing.

Looking at your armory the most obvious upgrades are your relic, trinket, and a few enchants. Cyclone Shoulderplates are worth an exalted enchant once you can get that, +6 stats on your chest is better than +150 hitpoints, Cataclysm Legplates are good enough for an epic enchant, and you're using the agi/crit damage meta gem so you could really use some form of runspeed on your boots. You're also an enchanter so you can enchant your rings, right?

I really dislike the first boss in Heroic Mana Tombs. I have run 37, quick 20 minute runs into that place trying to get the totem off him, and nothing. Very annoying.

I agree pretty much with everything here, we dont scale any better than anyone else, I think the main reason why I have cemented a permanent place in the top 5 is simply down the raid designs, hyjal is incredibly melee friendly, Najentus, Akama, Teron, RoS and Shahraz are all very good for melee.

With regard to T6 vs random pieces discussion, the drop rates on many of the random pieces sucks in comparison, of the items available, we have had no cursed vision, 1 bow stitched (went to a hunter) midnight chestguards we are going to be disenchanting because everyone has them and our rogues all want T6, mantle of darness - none.

We are gaurenteed to get T6 everyweek and difference is not massive so ignoring the items and waiting is counterproductive to the guild.

I think we had 2 healing paladins take Ret items this week because no one else needed the T6 as a main piece. I suppose that is the benefit of having a raiding team of less than 35 people.

Firstly thanks very much all for all the info, it confirmed everything I suspected. I've been quite unlucky with the relic, trying very hard to get it. I am getting a bloodlust brooch as soon as possible as well, had to use badges to buy nethers to upgrade my t1 mace --> t2, so I had none left after that.

My plan is to get the chest from either Hydross or from Karathress, to be honest which ever drops first. Get the belt of the deep shadow crafted, which should happen fairly soon as well. I was hanging onto the gloves for the 2 piece bonus of t4, extra AP from the improved SOE totem though. My gems also need some tweaking, but I can't do that until I get a chest with sockets, otherwise I lose my meta gem bonus.

Sebudai thanks for the tips. Again these were things I suspected. I'm almost there with consortium rep to enchant my rings, so that'll be wonderful when it comes. As for +6 stats to chest, I am waiting for a new chest before putting that on there, which should be in a week or two. Also not quite exalted yet with Scryer, chose to buy my epic mount first, that's on the priority list heh.

Also, thanks Stigmata - I had wondered if perhaps Hyjal/BT were more melee friendly and that accounted for much of why Shaman who were further towards endgame than myself were higher on the charts.

From what I can gather I'm much better sticking to random pieces/drops to make up my gear (also based of course on what I am able to get a hold of) than tier pieces as a generalisation. I know there are of course some tier pieces that are nice, but in general I have found from my position that I've very much had to make do with what I can get my hands on for the moment, and wait my turn for the things everyone wants. I quite literally only have the T5 legs, because I was the only person in raid who had yet to receieve them of all the rogues/shams/palis.

What I think is the opposite. We scale with gear worse than other classes. Take Mother Shahraz for example, I'm always 2nd or 3rd on that fight and everybody is in bad gear because of the needed shadow resistance. On other fights (either melee friendly or not) everyone in my group does better damage than me.

I've been a bit short on time lately with some travel, are there any changes or additions to the first post necessary? Anyone care to summarize them if so, and I'll insert them in?