Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I - Page 90

Malan · 09/06/07, 7:07 PM

Originally Posted by SardonicJoe1

you set the damage done by dexterity equal to the damage GAINED by the minor run speed, NOT the actual damage done.

I'm fairly certain that's not what I did, not to mention that the derivation used is simply a copy of a formula derived pre-TBC that was widely accepted.

Ekto · 09/06/07, 7:28 PM

Originally Posted by SardonicJoe1

this is completely wrong. in your first equation, you set the wrong quantities equal to each other. you set the damage done by dexterity equal to the damage GAINED by the minor run speed, NOT the actual damage done. hence your incorrect conclusion. the following is the correct derivation...

A = dps offered by 1 agility
T = total dps time for a boss fight (this does not include times where melee must stop dps, like running out of RoF on azgalor, but it DOES include the time you spend outside of melee range when there is no fire)
t = total time spent outside of melee range, during which you COULD have been dpsing (see above example)

over the course of the fight, dexterity will be responsible for the following amount of damage...

12 A (T - t)

over the course of the fight, cats swiftness (6agi+minor speed) will be responsible for the following amount of damage...

6 A (T - t') = 6 A (T - t/1.08)

so lets suppose that cats swiftness is better than dexterity and see what conditions T and t must satisfy for that to be true...

6A(T-t/1.08) > 12A(T-t)

...now you cancel out the A (so it really doesn't matter how much dps 1agi gives, just the assumption that 1agi gives a static amount of dps), and do some algebra to obtain...

T < (2-1/1.08)t ===> T < 1.074 t

so cats swiftness is better than dexterity if and only if the total time of the fight is LESS THAN 1.074 times the time you would normally spend outside of melee range. clearly, this condition is never satisfied on a normal boss fight. for example, on a 5 minute fight, you would have had to spend 4 minutes and 39 seconds outside of melee range for cats swiftness to be worthwhile.

please correct this on the front page for those thinking that minor run speed is worth getting.

apologies...in my haste i also made a grave error. it should read...

i should consider the total dps and not just the incremental changes. let D be your dps without a boot enchant. then for the minor run speed to be better we need the following...

(D+12A)(T-t) < (D+6A)(T-t/1.08)

which simplifies to

T < [(1-k)D + (2-k)6A]t/(6A)

where k = 1/1.08. my model, for example, gives A = .16286, and so we have

T < (.07581D + 1.074) t

so i was off by that extra term - 0.07581D. so lets use some actual data. i believe i do between 900 and 1000 dps on azgalor. so for that fight, we have

T < 76.88t

the fight lasts for about 5-6 minutes i think. so for 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds, which are conditions certainly met on azgalor.

so the original poster on this topic has a correct conclusion but slightly flawed derivation.

• Shabadu · 09/06/07, 7:32 PM

Originally Posted by Ilmater

Leather, leather, leather. Period. The armor mail gives you is minimally better than leather, and not worth it. If you were resto or elemental, then your shield makes it worth sticking with mail, but as enhancement, you don't need the INT or MP5 that your gear gives you, so go with leather in almost EVERY situation.

And I agree with what others said... there is no one stat to increase, just get items with the most AEP.

I prefer mail for one simple reason: Rogues get far more out of their gear than we do. A rogue and an enhancement shaman in the exact same leather gear, the rogue will come out better on top every time. If a leather piece drops and a rogue needs it, they get first crack. If a mail piece drops, screw hunters. Seriously. Many mail pieces are also actually superior to the equivalent tier leather for us. Right now I'd consider wearing only 1 piece of leather from Black Temple: Cursed Vision and one piece from SSC: Belt of One Hundred Deaths.

You're also going to be fighting with rogues for trinkets, especially Dragonspine Trophy. It's worth laying off their leather to keep equal footing for some trinkets, cloaks and jewelry. The whole thing is really dependent on the way your guild handles loot and the players involved anyway.

Malan · 09/06/07, 7:50 PM

Originally Posted by SardonicJoe1

the fight lasts for about 5-6 minutes i think. so for 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds, which are conditions certainly met on azgalor.

so the original poster on this topic has a correct conclusion but slightly flawed derivation.

I can't think of a fight that its not met for. KZ maybe not so much. But a 25 man boss? Every one of them involves movement to some degree greater than 4 seconds.

MrProcrastin8 · 09/06/07, 7:53 PM

Sorry to still be the forum noob, but, to help convince my guildies, I'm going to do the tests myself. But I need help on exactly how to do it. I'm doing 5 minute tests in the blasted lands. I'm just putting on autoattack while having healing stream and stoneskin down to help survive the 5 minutes. I'm not stormstriking, because I don't think my mana can sustain for that long. So far, I'm getting better results with the two daggers. I know not stormstriking may have something to do with that, but not sure how to figure that in without going oom. Also, I figure I have to do each test more than once, I'm thinking 3 of each should be sufficient.

There's obviously something I'm missing. Help

• Shabadu · 09/06/07, 7:55 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

I can't think of a fight that its not met for. KZ maybe not so much. But a 25 man boss? Every one of them involves movement to some degree greater than 4 seconds.

Reliquary of Souls, Anetheron, and ideally Na'jentus and Teron require zero movement. You shouldn't have to move on Naj since you should be in click range of the people next to you for spines, and running out on Teron is very infrequent, it's better to be safe when you get shadow and get out with enough time to spare than to risk staying in too long and dying too close to him.

Originally Posted by MrProcrastin8

There's obviously something I'm missing. Help

Water shield returns enough mana for a Stormstrike in roughly 10 seconds. Between spirit ticks and Water shield, you'll never run out of mana just SSing.

rava · 09/06/07, 8:00 PM

More attacks = more chance to proc. Meaning that by excluding 2 attacks every 10 seconds via Stormstrike it is possible that you are seeing better results with the faster weapons (judging by your crit rate flurry is probably up 50%?, pretty unfair to exclude SS in this kind of test). It's been tested more times than people have asked, "WILL FT BE BETTER OH LOLZ????", but each person needs to do the tests themselves to be satisfied. Good luck to you on your endeavors!

Malan · 09/06/07, 8:05 PM

Originally Posted by MrProcrastin8

Sorry to still be the forum noob, but, to help convince my guildies, I'm going to do the tests myself. But I need help on exactly how to do it.

http://elitistjerks.com/465934-post2028.html

hozzer · 09/06/07, 8:14 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Actually Strawberry (I think?) asked about this a few pages back with the Reflex blades, and after testing he found exactly what I told him - that the Reflex in MH and an AH green 2.6 was better than either of the epic daggers. I'd hang onto them for whenever those shaman talent changes come out just in case though.

When I saw this I immediately went to the first post to make sure one of the mantras of enhancement itemization I'd been sticking to steadfastly hadn't changed:

The cooldown on Windfury Weapon means that an OH that is faster than the MH is extremely detrimental to shaman DPS. The fast OH is more likely to hit again after a WF cooldown and therefore has the first opportunity to proc a new WF and trigger the cooldown again. OH interference prevents MH WF procs and thus reduces your DPS. It has been shown that this cooldown interference is so severe that replacing an epic dagger OH with a green or blue 2.6 speed OH will actually increase your DPS. (Again, despite this problem, it is still preferrable to have WF on the OH. Any WF proc, even on the OH, will result in more DPS over time than FlameTongue or Rockbiter on the OH.)

The only reason this immediately came to mind is that when Reflex Blades dropped for me, I immediately set about to find an oppropriate offhand, ideally something 2.7 or 2.8 speed. I found, I'm sure to no one's surprise, that a suitable weapon did not exist before BT/MTH, so I stuck with Mag'hari Fury Brand MH/2.6 Green OH. Was this a mistake?

I've been adhering to the premise that the offhand must be as slow as or slower than the mainhand slavishly. Should this be tested further? If an offhand weapon that is .1 or .2 seconds faster is not appreciably detrimental to our DPS, but one that is 1 second or more is, does that mean that any combination of weapons above 2.0 speed (or rather above 1.5 speed when hasted) probably ok?

Yo! · 09/06/07, 8:40 PM

Originally Posted by hozzer

When I saw this I immediately went to the first post to make sure one of the mantras of enhancement itemization I'd been sticking to steadfastly hadn't changed:

The only reason this immediately came to mind is that when Reflex Blades dropped for me, I immediately set about to find an oppropriate offhand, ideally something 2.7 or 2.8 speed. I found, I'm sure to no one's surprise, that a suitable weapon did not exist before BT/MTH, so I stuck with Mag'hari Fury Brand MH/2.6 Green OH. Was this a mistake?

I've been adhering to the premise that the offhand must be as slow as or slower than the mainhand slavishly. Should this be tested further? If an offhand weapon that is .1 or .2 seconds faster is not appreciably detrimental to our DPS, but one that is 1 second or more is, does that mean that any combination of weapons above 2.0 speed (or rather above 1.5 speed when hasted) probably ok?

You do not need to find OH that is slower than MH. You need to find OH as slow as possible - feel the difference

Out of 3 weapons that you have the best combo is Reflex MH + Mag'hari Fury Brand OH.
Go to Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo put your stats in and change weapon speeds - you will see how it works.

Ayror · 09/06/07, 10:00 PM

Hey all...I can't seem to find the chart that shows group gains from a shaman. I believe there was a chart that compared GoA vs. Windfury. If someone can link me a chart that shows dps gains from shaman buffs, I'd love that. Ty in advance.

(I'm trying to show raid leader that having the druid in my group is more dps than another rogue while putting the druid in a group with 2 hunters lol).

Malan · 09/06/07, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Ayror

(I'm trying to show raid leader that having the druid in my group is more dps than another rogue while putting the druid in a group with 2 hunters lol).

I'm not sure if I'm understanding this right, but I think you might be trying to find justification to have GoA in your group?

• Shabadu · 09/06/07, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Ayror

Hey all...I can't seem to find the chart that shows group gains from a shaman. I believe there was a chart that compared GoA vs. Windfury. If someone can link me a chart that shows dps gains from shaman buffs, I'd love that. Ty in advance.

(I'm trying to show raid leader that having the druid in my group is more dps than another rogue while putting the druid in a group with 2 hunters lol).

War/rog/rog/rog or war/sham and hunter/hunter/X/X/feral will out perform war/feral/rog/rog/sham and hunter/hunter/x/x/x 9 times out of 10. Time 10 is when you're doing Gurtogg and a hunter/hunter/shadowp/resto sham/x group is an excellent bloodboil group and having a feral with your shaman means higher threat. Enhancement shamans should NEVER BE DROPPING GOA IN RAIDS realistically, leave that for the resto shamans.

Ayror · 09/06/07, 11:12 PM

lol i would never drop goa in raid. I was just referencing that chart cause it had the stats on it.

Muj · 09/07/07, 12:27 AM

Hey I was browsing over my atlas loot last night checking out the tier 6 pieces in more detail and it occured to me that the itemization on tier 6 is quite different to tier 5. Tier 6 pieces drop a bit of hit rating and pick up more on crit and for some very odd reason, mp5. Is this possibly because blizzard has not changed it like they did with tier 4/5 earlier on in the year? And if so I wonder when they are going to change it.

At the moment I have 4/5 tier 5 and the 4 set bonus is just so good I can;t get over it, looking at the t6 set bonuses makes my eyes burn, like what do I need 10% off the shock costs with the up coming changes to shaman talents? And why would 70 more attack power be better than 5% more attack speed?

Tier 6 just seems somewhat inferior to tier 5 in regards to itemization, the only piece I am going to want is the legs as they are vastly superior to the tier 5 ones.

Has anyone else taken note of this yet? I am just wondering if my thoughts are correct because I am trying to get my head around what my end game raiding set will be.

Nite_Moogle · 09/07/07, 12:39 AM

for example, on a 5 minute fight, you would have had to spend 4 minutes and 39 seconds outside of melee range for cats swiftness to be worthwhile.

I am really impressed that you thought this could possibly be the correct answer with this kind of an example.

I'm doing 5 minute tests in the blasted lands.

Don't do this. The Blasted Lands NPCs will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever return accurate results when doing DPS comparisons involving Windfury. Try it on real bosses or at least even level mobs.

rava · 09/07/07, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Muj

Hey I was browsing over my atlas loot last night checking out the tier 6 pieces in more detail and it occured to me that the itemization on tier 6 is quite different to tier 5. Tier 6 pieces drop a bit of hit rating and pick up more on crit and for some very odd reason, mp5. Is this possibly because blizzard has not changed it like they did with tier 4/5 earlier on in the year? And if so I wonder when they are going to change it.

At the moment I have 4/5 tier 5 and the 4 set bonus is just so good I can;t get over it, looking at the t6 set bonuses makes my eyes burn, like what do I need 10% off the shock costs with the up coming changes to shaman talents? And why would 70 more attack power be better than 5% more attack speed?

Tier 6 just seems somewhat inferior to tier 5 in regards to itemization, the only piece I am going to want is the legs as they are vastly superior to the tier 5 ones.

Has anyone else taken note of this yet? I am just wondering if my thoughts are correct because I am trying to get my head around what my end game raiding set will be.

The exact same question was asked a few pages ago.

Teirz · 09/07/07, 1:59 AM

I wouldn't say NEVER drop GOA, but is situational for some mobile fight. For example for lurker fight my guild is using rouge/enh shaman to tank the adds so basically our melee group are all spread out beside maybe a rogue/war will be near me. Overall dps would be better by using goa than wf consider that for most time wf only benefits 1 rogue and while goa push both yourself and the rogue resulting a better dps output overall.

It's really depends on grouping and the fight itself.

A question to Shabadu, have you tested on belt of one-hundred death for the weapon skill thingy? I assume it should be the best belt for non-orc enh shaman in my earlier post but i will need some testing to make sure it is true.

Nemaa · 09/07/07, 8:05 AM

The only fight I can drop GOA is Illidari Council. I get 2 hunters, a rogue and a tanking druid in my group. All other melee is tanking or interrupting heals so they don't really need WF because their damage is low anyway.

◊ Kaubel · 09/07/07, 8:44 AM

Originally Posted by Ayror

lol.

Don't do this.

Ever.

TradewindKlaatubarada · 09/07/07, 9:48 AM

I liked the sim. I found interesting that at higher level gear, crit gets it's value down. AP is a safe addition all the time. I've socketed all my BT/MH gear with red gems (ignoring +agil bonuses) and then socketed Belt of One-Hundred Deaths with green/blue gems, since I'll keep it for a long time. Altough I could've switched it with a red gem somewhere else, I'll keep the blue/green requirements for metagem there since I doubt I'll change that piece in a long time, whilst socketing +10 STR gems all over other parts.

Interesting data:

AP=3200
Crit=32%
Hit=23%

AP=1
CR=2,16%
HR=1,83%
HaR=2,15%
STR=2,2
Agil=2,1

AP=3400
Crit=40%
Hit=23%

AP=1
CR=1,97%
HR=2,12%
HaR=1,13%
STR=2,2
Agil=1,91
Weird behaviour? hit over crit in value?

AP=3600
Crit=45%
Hit=23%

AP=1
CR=1,56%
HR=1,39%
HaR=0,54%
STR=2,2
Agil=1,52

I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit) and looking forward putting all my gems into STR. I'm hoping to get 45% crit soon when I loot some more agility items and switch some other stuff over, while maintaining 3500 AP due to gems.

Always choosing best AEP gear + socketing STR gems no matter what seems the way to go. Also looking forward to +damage/heal from AP. Definitely STR rocks the charts.

• Shabadu · 09/07/07, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Teirz

I wouldn't say NEVER drop GOA, but is situational for some mobile fight. For example for lurker fight my guild is using rouge/enh shaman to tank the adds so basically our melee group are all spread out beside maybe a rogue/war will be near me. Overall dps would be better by using goa than wf consider that for most time wf only benefits 1 rogue and while goa push both yourself and the rogue resulting a better dps output overall.

It's really depends on grouping and the fight itself.

A question to Shabadu, have you tested on belt of one-hundred death for the weapon skill thingy? I assume it should be the best belt for non-orc enh shaman in my earlier post but i will need some testing to make sure it is true.

Nope, we haven't been back to Vashj in months. Thank god I got the prism when I did.

For lurker we have 2 prot warriors and a feral, so the melee are always in the center platform dpsing the male nagas. On council we go with myself, a rogue and a dps warrior on gaithos full time and the veras feral or warrior, and a PoH priest who deals with gaithos tank healing and group healing for the melee. Being on Gaithos full time I often have to twist tranquil so GoA would be non-viable. The hunters in our guild have a campaign to get the resto shamans to spec Imp GoA, since they only get them.

Nemaa · 09/07/07, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Teirz

A question to Shabadu, have you tested on belt of one-hundred death for the weapon skill thingy? I assume it should be the best belt for non-orc enh shaman in my earlier post but i will need some testing to make sure it is true.

I'm interested in this question as well. Is it better than [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] and [Boneweave Girdle]?

TradewindKlaatubarada · 09/07/07, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Nemaa

I'm interested in this question as well. Is it better than [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] and [Boneweave Girdle]?

It is, from my experience.

Edit: remember not to use axes tho

• Shabadu · 09/07/07, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Nemaa

I'm interested in this question as well. Is it better than [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] and [Boneweave Girdle]?

http://elitistjerks.com/469179-post2171.html from 2 pages ago. I use double Syphon in most circumstances so it'd be pretty huge for me. Talon of Alar/Syphon with the belt would be a decent combo after the patch too I suppose.