◊ Malan

I'm working on converting this thread over to the theorycraft wiki, and I need some information. There's a few things that we've discussed that have been lost to the ages but are "common knowledge" that I need some actual math/testing to backup the reasoning for. I've been trying to locate this stuff but I'm failing at searching and having a general lack of time between work/raiding/writing.

So, if people can PM me or post here if they have a link to the info, or if they can rework it here for us, it'd be much appreciated. (Please don't just tell me "its a few pages back" as that could mean anything these days)

Info I need:

• Do we have some better reasoning for the crit dmg meta gem, other than the rudimentary reasoning I have in the OP right now? Theoretical dps value or something?
• I have the math showing the new WF as still good for rogues, lacking such evidence for Warriors.
• Anyone still have a link to Flametongue vs WF for OH?
• And the big one, I could use some links the original discussions where we illustrated how the WF cooldown makes fast OHs interfere with the procs, I'm lacking a more detailed explanation of it.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

Yo!

Can not reproduce these results in my sim for second and third quote. What were other stats? Haste, weapon speed, weapon dps and weapon skill? Remember to set Hours to 1000+, 10000 is recommended. Hit should be close to Crit in second quote with Crit still better. Haste is way too small in third quote (maybe you copied armor penetration instead?)

 

Malevolencia

Well not just that, but DW benefits more from AP than 2h. Since 2h gets it benefit from 1.0 times AP, which Duel Weild gains benefit from 1.5 times AP (since ap affects both MH and OH -- this is if you have capped +hit however). With 0% hit, 2h effectively gains (1.0 * 0.95 hit rate) = 0.95 from AP and DW gains (1.5 * 0.74 hit rate) = 1.11 from AP. As you can see, the more +hit we have (until we reach cap) the greater the difference between the two is. At a certain point (easily reached when raid buffed), this difference in gain from AP will outweigh the bonus base dps of a 2h weapon over similar ilevel 1h weapons.

So uh, in other words, as well as improved uptime of UR, you'll also have higher white dmg while DWing.

 

◊ Malan

Thanks that's good info.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

• Disquette

----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

 

• Toots Hepcat

I dual wield because it allows for two weapon imbues, two weapon enchants and gives 1 dps per 10.5 AP rather than 1 dps per 14.

Increased flurry and UR uptime is just icing on the cake.

 

◊ Malan

Disquette - so it was not a mathematical conclusion, rather, an observed behavior.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

• Nite_Moogle

This is a pretty gross oversimplification. The amount of AP needed for 1 DPS scales with the amount of +hit you have, and the ratio at which it scales changes based on whether or not your special attacks are hit capped or not.

This is more or less correct. Another major reason is that you must heavily pad your threat when using a 2Her since a single Windfury is a tremendous amount of threat, which cuts in to your total DPS time. Additionally, it is basically impossible to escape some amount of +hit that inevitably goes to waste when you are using a two-handed weapon, and there is no talent that offsets the extra 6% hit from dual wielding [i.e. you can't spend points elsewhere if you wanted to use a two hander, there are just no other useful points to spend at that point in the tree]. The talents that a Shaman gets are good enough for dual wielding that DW (up to 9% hit) is automatically more sustained DPS than using a 2H weapon (up to 3% hit). The ratio described above is .94:1.245 with a 0/42/19 build, and dual wielding also allows all special attacks to be hit-capped through talents alone.

[Carebare]: I'd rather not fit through doorways than be a troll

 

• Disquette

That's correct Malan. Other people, I found out later, had mathematical/theoretical reasons for the 36% being the right number, as opposed to a different number 34 to 37%. I found them compelling enough, and in line with the data enough, that I've used 36% ever since.

----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

 

◊ Malan

Ok I've added in all the stuff from above.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

Xoya

How on earth are you getting nearly 2000 AP from raid buffs? The highest I've gotten consistently (and granted, I don't have Ashtongue Talisman of Vision) is 2800-ish, AFTER unleashed rage, and I've only got ~50 AP less than you unbuffed.

Edit: Oh, er, you're wearing a Wavemender's Mantle in your armory profile. What do you usually wear?

 

TradewindKlaatubarada

Dragonstrike MH (current dps), Rod of the Sun King OH (with 100 DPS new value).

Both hasted to 2.61 (so I didn't introduce haste but just put the actual speed value that I get from Fists of Mukoa).

356 Weapon Skill Rating (Belt of One Hundred Deaths).

4400 armor on boss (default I think).

23% hit (I assumed it works like 12% from talents + 9% from hit rating in my gear)

The rest as you know. All tests were done at 1000 swings.

EDIT: I think it counted as if I had T6 bonus on tho, obviously I don't. Neither Ashtongue, wich is always up. With Ashtongue up I average 34xx AP. But still, AP shouldn't modify much those values. Btw, could you post the sim somwhere else? All those popups make my Firefox NoScript cry

Valyra, we have same AP when you have flask up :p

 

Nisall

The maths behind the 36% proc rate is that both hands have 20% chance to proc WF after the CD is over. This can also be written as an 80% chance to not proc WF. Since both actions (weapon swings) can separately start a single event (WF) you can say

0.8 * 0.8 = 0.64 chance for neither swings to proc a WF = 36% proc chance.

 

Lujaar

The idea of offhand procs "stealing" mainhand procs came from the Blizzard forums, and I think all the threads about it have been pruned by now. I don't recall any serious evaluation on this forum.

"OH eating MH problem" brought up here, and discussed sporadically over the next 2 pages (earliest post I could find on this forum that mentioned OH swings stealing MH procs): The Change to Windfury and You! (does not apply to warriors)


I posted test results related to this problem on page 11 of that thread. The conclusions I drew from the test at the time were flawed for a number of reasons, but the data is useful at least. I don't think anyone else has posted test data on this problem.

Don't want to quote the entire thing here, but it's on page 11 of the thread. I was using Black Planar Edge/Malchazeen and logging my number of mainhand vs offhand procs to see how it comapared to my mainhand vs offhand white swings.

White swings: 40% mainhand / 60% offhand
WF procs: 43.36% mainhand / 56.64% offhand


As far as I can tell, a fast offhand interferes with your total windfury damage by keeping you on 3-second cooldown a greater portion of the time. It does not interfere with mainhand windfury specifically (i.e. it interferes with MH and OH windfury equally). Several times people have referred to the offhand "eating" or "stealing" mainhand procs but I've never seen any data supporting that and I'm not even sure what it's supposed to mean.

 

◊ Malan

Yah I dislike the eating/stealing wording as well, and also the notion that it "lowers" your DPS. Its not really lowering anything by using a faster OH, its just capping you at a lower potential DPS.

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

Yo!

Tabs with procs and details are not working (no item proc was modelled) - they are for show of what I am going to do. If you think something is missing in design - please point to it.
If you have an idea of better add-free hosting somewhere - I will use it.

Important: If you do not put haste directly but put hasted weeapon speeds instead - the AEP value for haste will be higher than real one.

 

Yo!

You may want to use first or fifth picture from this post Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

We are talking about 36% proc chance for each strike to proc WF, not for 2 strikes. It is believed that Blizz uses different proc chance (not 20% but 36%) when dual-wielding for each strike.

 

• Toots Hepcat

EDIT: Pff, this whole "eligible swings," proc chance per hit stuff is corroding my brain's already poor statistical ability. I've removed possible disinformation until such time that I can better organize it.

 

◊ Shalas

The theoretical explaination is that when you have double Windfury enchants, both enchants have a chance to proc on each swing. This gives a (.8 * .8) 64% of no proc, or a 36% chance of proccing per swing. This also explains why quad procs happened with staggered ranks, as there would be a 4% chance of both windfuries proccing on the same swing.

One thing I've never seen mentioned or tested is if WF buffing both weapons applies even if the other weapon has an enchant other than windfury. It seems unlikely, but is theoretically possible.

(source: WoW Forums -> 2.1 Windfury Is Still Bugged! )

 

◊ Malan

I like the idea of using that image Yo, but it may be confusing to some people. When examining the graph, combos such as a 3.0/1.0 are in the same region as the 3.0/3.0 combo. Maybe its the scale of the graph - if you were to isolate the ranges of weapons that we're really interested in here (2.8 - 1.4) maybe it would show the effect more clearly?

Vyktianity already has over 75 billion followers. The first verse in his book "Gift of the Wild" is "In the beginning Vyk cast lifebloom and then maul."

 

Yo!

Why?

 

TradewindKlaatubarada

Been thinking, with the incoming 60% mana reduction to shocks and potential +1000 spelldamage raidbuffed, switching from Water Shield to Lightning Shield in raids will be mana viable, and I suspect very very damage viable also.

There has been any maths on it?

 

• Toots Hepcat

Yo -- my error here was confusion over the term "eligible white hits." I think I have just about purged it from my brain, but I do need to go over my WWS data to convince myself of that fact.