Hey, we've been discussing the relation between Syphon/RT and such, but i didn't see any numbers with Strike/RT - Strike/Syphon in the way to point us if we should swap the Strike (for those BS out there) for the RT when we get the chance to it or not.
I know the RT get's a higher AEP value than the Strike, but the proc now, before nerf, seems very overhealming to me. So, as people asked that and got no real focused answer on it (threads own minds, anyway), could we stick with this?
Like, once u get the chance to grab RT, Syphon, should we change MH Strike for any of them or not or use Strike MH and RT OH or Syphon OH, anyway...
Numbers?
Edit: Just saw Stigmata armory and saw he's still using Strike in MH with Syphon OH. I was thinking about using the RT at offhand, but i'm in doubt as the Syphon speed is just lewt. any of u guys tried for RT OH compared to Syphon OH both with Strike at MH?
Last edited by T.K. : 09/08/07 at 3:13 AM.
Reason: Wrong name of OH
Hey, we've been discussing the relation between Syphon/RT and such, but i didn't see any numbers with Strike/RT - Strike/Syphon in the way to point us if we should swap the Strike (for those BS out there) for the RT when we get the chance to it or not.
I know the RT get's a higher AEP value than the Strike, but the proc now, before nerf, seems very overhealming to me. So, as people asked that and got no real focused answer on it (threads own minds, anyway), could we stick with this?
Like, once u get the chance to grab RT, Syphon, should we change MH Strike for any of them or not or use Strike MH and RT OH or Syphon OH, anyway...
Numbers?
Edit: Just saw Stigmata armory and saw he's still using Strike in MH with Syphon OH. I was thinking about using the RT at offhand, but i'm in doubt as the Syphon speed is just lewt. any of u guys tried for RT OH compared to Syphon OH both with Strike at MH?
I am having a hard time understanding why people refuse to read, or at least skim through pages to find that their questions have been asked and responded to over and over again. All of the weapon combos have been tested pre haste nerf, the information is all here; just look for it.
I was curious, is haste rating on items stil as important after the patch ?, i mean item's like Bindings of Lightning Reflexes or Valestalker Girdle wouldend it be beter to replace them with others?
Yes I was taking into account UR (100% uptime) and Ashtongue Talisman (80-90%).
I never stated to have 45% crit whilst having 3500 AP, those were stats I made out to point how crit decreased damage when stacked too much (using Yo's sim). I said: "I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit)"
Here's the screen; discount both mongooses, add flask and str food. That's the 34xx AP and 38-40% crit I was talking about. And the screen is missing Bow Stitched Leggings with x3 +10 STR gems btw.
Yes I was taking into account UR (100% uptime) and Ashtongue Talisman (80-90%).
I never stated to have 45% crit whilst having 3500 AP, those were stats I made out to point how crit decreased damage when stacked too much (using Yo's sim). I said: "I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit)"
Here's the screen; discount both mongooses, add flask and str food. That's the 34xx AP and 38-40% crit I was talking about. And the screen is missing Bow Stitched Leggings with x3 +10 STR gems btw.
3131+120+40+16= 3307, not quite 3500. I was under the impression that it was common knowledge that AP is the best scaling stat, so I'm having a hard time grasping what the original intent of your post was.
Son, to me a robot's just a garbage can with sparks comin' out it.
3131+120+40+16= 3307, not quite 3500. I was under the impression that it was common knowledge that AP is the best scaling stat, so I'm having a hard time grasping what the original intent of your post was.
No, I reached 34xx. Something's wrong on your math, or you are not taking into account something.
My original post was all about how agility (or crit rating) loses value at some point, then regains it. It was specifically about Yo's sim that shows some weird behaviour. Yes, agility is expected to lose value the higher crit gets, but no, it is not expected to go down then go up again (afaik).
EDIT: on a sidenote, regarding Ashtongue Talisman. It doesn't affect Stormstrike at all (procs after, ends before) but does affect a WF triggered by Stormstrike? Haven't been able to determine this via combat log.
Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 09/08/07 at 7:29 AM.
Thats because your list doesnt give any value to +skill and +haste. The +skill makes the belt by far the best in the game currently. (and thats with most formulas possibly even underestimating +skill if I'm not misinformed)
No list is perfect. I did not even try to give a value for weapon skill, haste or reducing armor for example. I see these lists only as a personal help to see what pieces might suit your current need and what alternatives there are.
As long as you are wearing Axes the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths is not very interesting for example. And with the upcoming haste nerf I probably won't wear a single haste rating item. Most lists are also not taking stamina into account even though you need a lot of it in HS/BT.
I was wondering if you guys consider it worth to get the merciless gladi helm instead of t4 helm or is it just a waste of points? And if the veteran bracers is better compared to the stalker bands from attumen in kara? This is probably 2 shit questions but i'm trying to get a gear together so i can start raid as an enhancement shaman.
I was wondering if you guys consider it worth to get the merciless gladi helm instead of t4 helm or is it just a waste of points? And if the veteran bracers is better compared to the stalker bands from attumen in kara? This is probably 2 shit questions but i'm trying to get a gear together so i can start raid as an enhancement shaman.
On the first page, you have values for every important stat for an Enhancement shaman. Go there, take those values and do some maths on the items you're trying to compare. You can easily answer yourself.
I think it's more of a matter of opinion. What i rly want to know is if you guys think it's worth to spend the arena points for the merciless helmet or just wait for the t4 head to drop and if it's worth to spend the honor points on the veteran bracer or just keep the bracers from attumen. It's not rly what i said but it was what i meant.
Well it's really easy, just divide the amount of +damage by your weapon speed, you get the corresponding dps gain, multiply this by 14 and you will get the equivalent in attack power.
Well it's really easy, just divide the amount of +damage by your weapon speed, you get the corresponding dps gain, multiply this by 14 and you will get the equivalent in attack power.
If you wear a 2.6 speed weapon, you get :
7 / 2.6 = 2.69 dps
2.69 * 14 = 37.36 attack power
Yous should also multiply it with a certain haste factor, like 1.2x for common flurry uptime.
Yous should also multiply it with a certain haste factor, like 1.2x for common flurry uptime.
Uh why? :o I don't think you should, he's trying to compare it to AP which is effectively a flat damage increase on your weapon based upon base weapon speed, AP doesn't change how much dmg it adds per hit when you haste your weapons..
However, you have to take account of the Offhand too. If both weapons are the same speed, the calculation given would be correct however if they aren't it's slightly different. Also, is the bonus halved on the offhand or not? I have no experience on that so have no idea..
E.g. if you have 3.0speed MH and Offhand, and the dmg bonus was +3 (to make math easier :p) then you're adding 1dps on MH and on OH, which is 14 AP.. Which is fine.. However, if it were 3.0 MH and 1.5speed OH. Then 14 AP has the effect of 3 dmg on MH and only 1.5dmg on OH. Thus a +3 dmg boost from item, is now better than 14AP. (since it gives +3 on both).
This then is probably equal to AP according to the formula:
So the correct formula for it is possibly:
If the +7 dmg is halved on OH (this is likely the case):
((7 / MH-speed) + (3.5 / OH-speed) ) / 2 = avg dps added.
Avg dps added * 14 = AP.
If the +7 dmg is not halved on OH:
((7 / MH-speed) + (7 / OH-speed)*2) / 2 = avg dps added.
This then is probably equal to AP according to the formula:
So the correct formula for it is possibly:
If the +7 dmg is halved on OH (this is likely the case):
((7 / MH-speed) + (3.5 / OH-speed) ) / 2 = avg dps added.
Avg dps added * 14 = AP.
If the +7 dmg is not halved on OH:
((7 / MH-speed) + (7 / OH-speed)*2) / 2 = avg dps added.
avg dps added * 14 = AP
Yes you're right. I'm sorry for the confusion, for a pure aep comparison you do need to weight it with anything.
Uh why? :o I don't think you should, he's trying to compare it to AP which is effectively a flat damage increase on your weapon based upon base weapon speed, AP doesn't change how much dmg it adds per hit when you haste your weapons..
However, you have to take account of the Offhand too. If both weapons are the same speed, the calculation given would be correct however if they aren't it's slightly different. Also, is the bonus halved on the offhand or not? I have no experience on that so have no idea..
E.g. if you have 3.0speed MH and Offhand, and the dmg bonus was +3 (to make math easier :p) then you're adding 1dps on MH and on OH, which is 14 AP.. Which is fine.. However, if it were 3.0 MH and 1.5speed OH. Then 14 AP has the effect of 3 dmg on MH and only 1.5dmg on OH. Thus a +3 dmg boost from item, is now better than 14AP. (since it gives +3 on both).
This then is probably equal to AP according to the formula:
So the correct formula for it is possibly:
If the +7 dmg is halved on OH (this is likely the case):
((7 / MH-speed) + (3.5 / OH-speed) ) / 2 = avg dps added.
Avg dps added * 14 = AP.
If the +7 dmg is not halved on OH:
((7 / MH-speed) + (7 / OH-speed)*2) / 2 = avg dps added.
avg dps added * 14 = AP
It should be weighted to account for unleashed rage which will add 10% AP but will not buff the + weapon damage stat
Avg dps added * 14 /1.1 = AP would be closer to the mark I think.
I am having a hard time understanding why people refuse to read, or at least skim through pages to find that their questions have been asked and responded to over and over again. All of the weapon combos have been tested pre haste nerf, the information is all here; just look for it.
Well, for me it's DAMN STUPID HARDER than, why people only reply without paying attention to questions.
I've been reading this since page 1 started. Even before Malan made the piece of art that's in the front page. I've discussed stuff with Disquette by PM waaaaay before we reached so detailed discussion or even that his simulator was as know or good as it's now. i've read every single post or every single page of this thread and others AND there's no anwser to that question.
ALL the comparisons between weapons were almost all the time made between RT and Syphon. And basically, if i wanted a comparison to AEP values i'd just sum the up and don't waste people's time and my time. What i asked for was people feelings about the weapon. We already now that the AEP of RT is higher than Strike, we already know that after patch haste will have a lower value, pretty close to what +hit equal for us now. What i'm saying and was asking, is that if people feels that the mace is and will still be better with the increased procs because of the haste proc and such. i think i saw like 2 or 3 posts with people saying that with some haste and Flurry up the uptime in Strike was basically the same in PTR.
To me, saying that it has lower AEP than RT and that's it is like saying Flurry hastes the next X atks and that's it. We know it's not stone carved like that.
Yes, and he's also the guy who's made a large number of contributions to our understanding of shaman mechanics, to include the first simulator we had access to. He fully states in that thread you linked that he goofed up in adding DPS instead of multiplying. He made an error and admitted it, who cares?
Yes, and he's also the guy who's made a large number of contributions to our understanding of shaman mechanics, to include the first simulator we had access to. He fully states in that thread you linked that he goofed up in adding DPS instead of multiplying. He made an error and admitted it, who cares?
I'm just surprised, because I wouldn't expect those to be the same person.
Actually, the fundamental problem in that post is not that he added DPS instead of weapon damage. That was just a small problem compared to the other issue with that calculation: he didn't take into account the number of times Windfury would proc. The beauty of Windfury is that a slower weapon would have harder hitting procs, and a faster weapon would have more procs in a given time, such that the two factors balance each other out, resulting in a flat damage increase without needing normalization at all. Towards the end of that thread he admitted to the error of adding DPS to damage, but he never realized the error of failing to take into account the proc rate. In the last post he still believes that given a high enough attack power the Sunstrider Axe would overtake the epic in damage. But if he took into account the proc rate, he would see that the weapon speed actually drops out completely in the correct calculation for Windfury DPS, so a lower DPS weapon could never overtake a higher DPS weapon regardless of weapon speed.
Or maybe he knows more about WF mechanics than you do. Seriously, read the first post. You really have no business commenting on enhancement mechanics if you don't understand something as fundamental as the 3 sec cooldown on WF.
Or maybe he knows more about WF mechanics than you do. Seriously, read the first post. You really have no business commenting on enhancement mechanics if you don't understand something as fundamental as the 3 sec cooldown on WF.
The 3 second cooldown is irrelevant in this simple calculation. Ironically enough, it is actually him who found out that despite the 3 sec cooldown Windfury is still proccing at around 20% rate when dual-wielding. I think it may very well be that those posts are made by a friend of his or something without his permission. Because he clearly knows too much about Windfury mechanics to be making such a fundamental mistake.
I was looking for some advice on which gear to choose so any help would be appreiated
My armory page with enhancment gear (will change back to elemental some time today so I'll list the gear etc)
I have 1320 ap, 153, 27.19 crit unbuffed
I'm using the Desolation Shoulders (w/ 2 6 str gems) with the Desolation Leggings that gives me 67 hit rating along however in an attempt to increase my ap I was thinking of getting the Forestwalker Kilt from MT and Cyclone shoulders from Maulgar this would give me 128 ap .20%ish more crit at the cost of 50 hit rating, I could also instead of putting either str/ & crit/str sockets use hit/str or hit sockets to try and make up for the loss of hit.
What I really want to know is 103 hit too low or should I go for it, I used to be a guy who thought 200 hit was vital because that's what I had been told (I'm not very good at maths) and was rather confused when everyone started going on about not needing 200 anyway ;p
09/08/07, 2:58 AM
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